Tank healing is to high

[Lyth]

Taking away the healing aspect of tanks just neutered their gameplay into being glorified DPS who occasionally press a mitigation button. If they even need said mitigation in the first place. What needs to be addressed is the core issue so we aren't reducing another role to essentially being a gimped DPS. In fact, fixing the outgoing damage will only benefit both tanks and healers.

This is correct. There's a lot of focus on what feels good in the short term over what is engaging and interesting in the long term. Difficulty depends on both your mitigation toolkit and how hard the content pushes you to actually use it. The imbalance comes from both sides.

It's not that the ability to solo some of the easier/older content itself is a bad thing. It can be fun, especially if there's an element of player skill that is involved. But as it becomes easier to do and more commonplace, it reflects problems with both the progressive inflation of our mitigation toolkits, as well as in fight tuning. Likewise, I think that healer ennui is another symptom of these two problems.

[ForteNightshade]

First point is a strawman argument.

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As for p3s, sure. Don't you see how absurd your argument is, though?

Hey if you do savage, and not even that but one of the last two fights. "Hey guys healers are absolutely needed in two of the 10 current trial/raid fights, you're absolutely not getting by without a healer in 20% of current content. Pay no attention to being complete deadweight in non-high end content...". Yep...

No it isn't.

You're essentially putting all the blame on tank sustain and mitigation being too high, thus impacting healer gameplay. I'm simply countering that by pointing out the sheer bevvy of healer oGCD is an equally if not bigger contributor factor to that same problem. To cite my original post, what does nerfing all the tank sustain accomplish? P1N will still remain a laughable joke for healers who will spam their nuke and nothing else. All that's changed is a reduction in tank's gameplay.

Regardless, did you actually read my argument? Because you missed this part:

P3S is an excellent example of making outgoing damage threatening to the tanks. Even in normal, the OT gets absolutely shredded. Unfortunately, consistent damage like this is incredibly rare.

The crux of my point is this design philosophy shouldn't be exclusive to Savage but featured in every level of content because it actually puts our kits to work, albeit still not to the extent it probably should. Once again, we're rooting back to the actual issue here: outgoing damage is embarrassingly low, and simply can't overcome both the toolkits tanks and healers possess. It's a mutual problem not an exclusive one.

[Rhais]

First point is a strawman argument.

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As for p3s, sure. Don't you see how absurd your argument is, though?

Hey if you do savage, and not even that but one of the last two fights. "Hey guys healers are absolutely needed in two of the 10 current trial/raid fights, you're absolutely not getting by without a healer in 20% of current content. Pay no attention to being complete deadweight in non-high end content...". Yep...

You are missing the point of the person you quoted. What is being said is more content needs to be tuned with similar incoming damage, not "just go do savage".

And yes, the content tuning is largely responsible. Saying that across the board, all tank kits are "broken beyond belief" is what is absurd.

And really, what do the healer mains complaining about tank heals think is going to change if they remove them? Since the content is generally so undertuned you might have to throw out an extra ogcd, that is about it. It wouldn't cause very much change in the gameplay experience at all. You would still be doing 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1.

[deadman1204]

No it isn't.

You're essentially putting all the blame on tank sustain and mitigation being too high, thus impacting healer gameplay. I'm simply countering that by pointing out the sheer bevvy of healer oGCD is an equally if not bigger contributor factor to that same problem. To cite my original post, what does nerfing all the tank sustain accomplish? P1N will still remain a laughable joke for healers who will spam their nuke and nothing else. All that's changed is a reduction in tank's gameplay.

These are some amazing backflips your doing. Its healers fault that they are irrelevant? lol

[ForteNightshade]

These are some amazing backflips your doing. Its healers fault that they are irrelevant? lol

Sigh...

Like Rhais said above, you're missing the entire point. It's the encounter design alongside how overpowered both tanks and healers are relative to it that compounds on top of each other. In a sense though, yes, healer's own tools reduce the impact their role has because they simply have too many options. For the third time now, what would nerfing every single tank's sustain actually accomplish? Would you have more to heal? No, you wouldn't. We know this because Shadowbringers lacked anywhere close to the tank sustain we have now and healers barely did anything beyond DPS. Tanks weren't solo-ing things to the extent they are now but are we really going to argue healers maybe throwing out a single oGCD made them feel any more relevant?

Once more, the core issue is encounter design being woefully undertuned. Reducing tanks back to being DPS who can take hits won't suddenly make the healers any more interesting. We'll just have two roles that are boring instead of one.

[Kalaam]

To make an analogy, I will use DnD 5e. Wait a moment, you'll get what I mean in a second.
Let's say you want to play a survivalist, a character super good at tracking down things and finding ressources in an hostile environnement, lost in the jungle etc. You pick a druid or a ranger, get a good rank in survival and nature, take spells and abilities that makes it easier to navigate and find your way.

But in actual sessions, it just means that this whole part of the adventure is trivialized and made irrelevant by your character. You made this character because you wanted to experience exploration and survival, but their abilities make it so easy that it'll likely be ignored completely. Paradoxically, if you enjoy that survival, exploration, getting lost and finding food etc aspect you are better off playing a character that is NOT built to do this thing.

Healers are kind of in the same situation. I assume most healer mains play healer because they enjoy healing and managing the survival of their party. But if the fights are too easy/their tool too powerful, they won't have much to do or to enjoy.
Imagine if a DPS killed all the ennemies a third of the way into their rotation. As if everything was like floor 55 of palace of the dead. That's what healers are complaining about.

[Shurrikhan]

To make an analogy, I will use DnD 5e. Wait a moment, you'll get what I mean in a second.
Let's say you want to play a survivalist, a character super good at tracking down things and finding ressources in an hostile environnement, lost in the jungle etc. You pick a druid or a ranger, get a good rank in survival and nature, take spells and abilities that makes it easier to navigate and find your way.

But in actual sessions, it just means that this whole part of the adventure is trivialized and made irrelevant by your character. You made this character because you wanted to experience exploration and survival, but their abilities make it so easy that it'll likely be ignored completely. Paradoxically, if you enjoy that survival, exploration, getting lost and finding food etc aspect you are better off playing a character that is NOT built to do this thing.

Your analogy. It cuts so deep.

(At least if/when you didn't coordinate beforehand with your GM to make that portion of the experience damn near impossible without those skills and similar actions (likely to be synergetic results of less direct means of dealing with that area of content), which is basically the case here, since the devs are insistent on making most content healable even by those only half-competent and only half-awake.)

[Risvertasashi]

-snip-.

Since you seem to be continuing with your strawman argument, let me explain the problem with it.

The source of healing doesn't matter if the healing simply isn't needed.

GCD options? oGCD options? Completely irrelevant here. If the party doesn't need healing because tanks (and in some cases, DPS) bring it themselves, then changing healer design doesn't matter.

And, as a nitpick to your nitpick, I've never complained that mitigation is too high. Very high mitigation is fine as long as tanks will eventually die without help. Otherwise, we might as well be Guild Wars or Black Desert and just take healers out altogether. (Which... to be fair, the game certainly hasn't been going in the direction of making healers more relevant).

[Shurrikhan]

Sigh...

Like Rhais said above, you're missing the entire point. It's the encounter design alongside how overpowered both tanks and healers are relative to it that compounds on top of each other. In a sense though, yes, healer's own tools reduce the impact their role has because they simply have too many options. For the third time now, what would nerfing every single tank's sustain actually accomplish? Would you have more to heal? No, you wouldn't. We know this because Shadowbringers lacked anywhere close to the tank sustain we have now and healers barely did anything beyond DPS. Tanks weren't solo-ing things to the extent they are now but are we really going to argue healers maybe throwing out a single oGCD made them feel any more relevant?

Once more, the core issue is encounter design being woefully undertuned. Reducing tanks back to being DPS who can take hits won't suddenly make the healers any more interesting. We'll just have two roles that are boring instead of one.

This argument's a bit odd, as much as I agree that we shouldn't strip heals from tanks.

Yes, the present low healing requirements mean that we'd still encounter a problem of (roughly) the same type even if we reduced tank's self-sustain, since even Healers' free healing would still be great enough to make GCD healing feel excessive. However, the party would still, very literally, have less excessive healing (speaking in flat terms), if tank sustain was reduced, just as it would if Healers' free (oGCD) healing were reduced.

It would be, imo, a poor approach to handling the situation, but it wouldn't be irrelevant, nor would there be no benefit to healers' place in content resulting from the expense to tanks (even if it'd arguably not be a net positive for the game, and an altogether unnecessary cost regardless).

[Risvertasashi]

To make an analogy, I will use DnD 5e. Wait a moment, you'll get what I mean in a second.
Let's say you want to play a survivalist, a character super good at tracking down things and finding ressources in an hostile environnement, lost in the jungle etc. You pick a druid or a ranger, get a good rank in survival and nature, take spells and abilities that makes it easier to navigate and find your way.

But in actual sessions, it just means that this whole part of the adventure is trivialized and made irrelevant by your character. You made this character because you wanted to experience exploration and survival, but their abilities make it so easy that it'll likely be ignored completely. Paradoxically, if you enjoy that survival, exploration, getting lost and finding food etc aspect you are better off playing a character that is NOT built to do this thing.

Healers are kind of in the same situation. I assume most healer mains play healer because they enjoy healing and managing the survival of their party. But if the fights are too easy/their tool too powerful, they won't have much to do or to enjoy.
Imagine if a DPS killed all the ennemies a third of the way into their rotation. As if everything was like floor 55 of palace of the dead. That's what healers are complaining about.

I mean, sort of? That's kind of a separate issue.

Instead, if you want to use a dnd analogy, imagine that you pick up cleric thinking that you want to heal people. But then when you start actually playing, it turns out everyone heals themselves as a natural part of doing damage, so you never need to invoke any of your curatives. The tank gets hit for 20hp on the enemy's turn, but then on his next turn he heals himself for 100hp by hitting that enemy. But the GM promises that every 7 months, there will be a boss fight that the tank can't heal through.

dnd cleric at least has better damage options and brings a lot to a group outside of healing, though.