Tank healing is to high

[ForteNightshade]

Two problems can exist at once. Yes, it would be nice if damage in regular content was tuned higher. (Been asking for that for more than half a decade now and it hasn't materialized)

But that doesn't change that the current tank kits are broken beyond belief. Even if SE does tune up damage in regular content, this is still a problem that needs to be fixed.

If we're going to go down that road. Why don't we also address the absurd amount of oGCD heals we have nowadays? That's also a huge factor in why content is so laughable. And why healers spend so little time using their GCDs on anything except damage. It's a combination of both roles being overpowered relative to the comically tuned content.

P3S is an excellent example of making outgoing damage threatening to the tanks. Even in normal, the OT gets absolutely shredded. Unfortunately, consistent damage like this is incredibly rare.

[Praesul]

If we're going to go down that road. Why don't we also address the absurd amount of oGCD heals we have nowadays? That's also a huge factor in why content is so laughable. And why healers spend so little time using their GCDs on anything except damage. It's a combination of both roles being overpowered relative to the comically tuned content.

P3S is an excellent example of making outgoing damage threatening to the tanks. Even in normal, the OT gets absolutely shredded. Unfortunately, consistent damage like this is incredibly rare.

The damage in P3 normal is so high, it's more threatening than the damage I take in P1S or P2S.

[Risvertasashi]

If we're going to go down that road. Why don't we also address the absurd amount of oGCD heals we have nowadays? That's also a huge factor in why content is so laughable. And why healers spend so little time using their GCDs on anything except damage. It's a combination of both roles being overpowered relative to the comically tuned content.

P3S is an excellent example of making outgoing damage threatening to the tanks. Even in normal, the OT gets absolutely shredded. Unfortunately, consistent damage like this is incredibly rare.

First point is a strawman argument.

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As for p3s, sure. Don't you see how absurd your argument is, though?

Hey if you do savage, and not even that but one of the last two fights. "Hey guys healers are absolutely needed in two of the 10 current trial/raid fights, you're absolutely not getting by without a healer in 20% of current content. Pay no attention to being complete deadweight in non-high end content...". Yep...

[ForteNightshade]

First point is a strawman argument.

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As for p3s, sure. Don't you see how absurd your argument is, though?

Hey if you do savage, and not even that but one of the last two fights. "Hey guys healers are absolutely needed in two of the 10 current trial/raid fights, you're absolutely not getting by without a healer in 20% of current content. Pay no attention to being complete deadweight in non-high end content...". Yep...

No it isn't.

You're essentially putting all the blame on tank sustain and mitigation being too high, thus impacting healer gameplay. I'm simply countering that by pointing out the sheer bevvy of healer oGCD is an equally if not bigger contributor factor to that same problem. To cite my original post, what does nerfing all the tank sustain accomplish? P1N will still remain a laughable joke for healers who will spam their nuke and nothing else. All that's changed is a reduction in tank's gameplay.

Regardless, did you actually read my argument? Because you missed this part:

P3S is an excellent example of making outgoing damage threatening to the tanks. Even in normal, the OT gets absolutely shredded. Unfortunately, consistent damage like this is incredibly rare.

The crux of my point is this design philosophy shouldn't be exclusive to Savage but featured in every level of content because it actually puts our kits to work, albeit still not to the extent it probably should. Once again, we're rooting back to the actual issue here: outgoing damage is embarrassingly low, and simply can't overcome both the toolkits tanks and healers possess. It's a mutual problem not an exclusive one.

[deadman1204]

No it isn't.

You're essentially putting all the blame on tank sustain and mitigation being too high, thus impacting healer gameplay. I'm simply countering that by pointing out the sheer bevvy of healer oGCD is an equally if not bigger contributor factor to that same problem. To cite my original post, what does nerfing all the tank sustain accomplish? P1N will still remain a laughable joke for healers who will spam their nuke and nothing else. All that's changed is a reduction in tank's gameplay.

These are some amazing backflips your doing. Its healers fault that they are irrelevant? lol

[ForteNightshade]

These are some amazing backflips your doing. Its healers fault that they are irrelevant? lol

Sigh...

Like Rhais said above, you're missing the entire point. It's the encounter design alongside how overpowered both tanks and healers are relative to it that compounds on top of each other. In a sense though, yes, healer's own tools reduce the impact their role has because they simply have too many options. For the third time now, what would nerfing every single tank's sustain actually accomplish? Would you have more to heal? No, you wouldn't. We know this because Shadowbringers lacked anywhere close to the tank sustain we have now and healers barely did anything beyond DPS. Tanks weren't solo-ing things to the extent they are now but are we really going to argue healers maybe throwing out a single oGCD made them feel any more relevant?

Once more, the core issue is encounter design being woefully undertuned. Reducing tanks back to being DPS who can take hits won't suddenly make the healers any more interesting. We'll just have two roles that are boring instead of one.

[Risvertasashi]

-snip-.

Since you seem to be continuing with your strawman argument, let me explain the problem with it.

The source of healing doesn't matter if the healing simply isn't needed.

GCD options? oGCD options? Completely irrelevant here. If the party doesn't need healing because tanks (and in some cases, DPS) bring it themselves, then changing healer design doesn't matter.

And, as a nitpick to your nitpick, I've never complained that mitigation is too high. Very high mitigation is fine as long as tanks will eventually die without help. Otherwise, we might as well be Guild Wars or Black Desert and just take healers out altogether. (Which... to be fair, the game certainly hasn't been going in the direction of making healers more relevant).

[ForteNightshade]

Since you seem to be continuing with your strawman argument, let me explain the problem with it.

The source of healing doesn't matter if the healing simply isn't needed.

GCD options? oGCD options? Completely irrelevant here. If the party doesn't need healing because tanks (and in some cases, DPS) bring it themselves, then changing healer design doesn't matter

And, as a nitpick to your nitpick, I've never complained that mitigation is too high. Very high mitigation is fine as long as tanks will eventually die without help. Otherwise, we might as well be Guild Wars or Black Desert and just take healers out altogether. (Which... to be fair, the game certainly hasn't been going in the direction of making healers more relevant).

The problem is your proposed solution doesn't really achieve anything. Which is the crux of my point. Instead of having virtually no healing to do, you press Essential Dignity once in a blue moon. It's hardly what I would call relevancy. Hence my argument being it isn't simply tank sustain but multiple sources stacked on top of each other.

Both tanks and healer kits need to be nerfed and/or outgoing damage balanced around the sheer options available to us. Furthermore, you're ignoring the party does need healing. No DPS can survive any mass pull or normal mode without a healer for long.

Nevertheless, you address this problem by actually adding higher outgoing damage, forced tank swaps, Dooms, consistent triage. Not even Warrior can survive P3N without a healer because you're getting shredded for such a long time, especially if the other tank dies. Bloodwhetting is a little silly in dungeon, but the root problem is how little everything hurts. Look at how many times the Warrior solo-ing P1N comes close to dying. Up Eric's damage by 10% and suddenly no amount of sustain they presently have keeps them alive. Make it so a split stack AoE is impossible to survive solo. Make every boss deal double autos so both tanks are repeatedly taking damage. All of these accomplish the same thing without taking away an aspect of tank's gameplay.

This argument's a bit odd, as much as I agree that we shouldn't strip heals from tanks.

Yes, the present low healing requirements mean that we'd still encounter a problem of (roughly) the same type even if we reduced tank's self-sustain, since even Healers' free healing would still be great enough to make GCD healing feel excessive. However, the party would still, very literally, have less excessive healing (speaking in flat terms), if tank sustain was reduced, just as it would if Healers' free (oGCD) healing were reduced.

It would be, imo, a poor approach to handling the situation, but it wouldn't be irrelevant, nor would there be no benefit to healers' place in content resulting from the expense to tanks (even if it'd arguably not be a net positive for the game, and an altogether unnecessary cost regardless).

Perhaps it is an odd argument in a sense given the topic itself is about tank sustain not necessarily healing output in general. Nevertheless, I brought that up because I'd prefer focusing on the bigger picture as a whole instead of nerfing all the tank sustain, thereby reducing their gameplay to being damage sponges and little else—especially when it won't really impact healer gameplay in a meaningful way. If they nerf Bloodwhetting into the ground come 6.08. What really changes? You'll slap Tetra or ED on the WAR occasionally and need to heal them about as much as in Shadowbringers for dungeons, which wasn't much. In other words, we're back to both roles feeling hollow instead of one. Granted, tanks aren't exactly the most exhilarating role even with the sustain.

To put it simply, I want the devs to see nonsense like this P1N solo and realize how horrendously undertone fights are not decide "nerfing tank sustain will fix everything!"

With that said, I don't disagree with anything you've said either.

[Shurrikhan]

Sigh...

Like Rhais said above, you're missing the entire point. It's the encounter design alongside how overpowered both tanks and healers are relative to it that compounds on top of each other. In a sense though, yes, healer's own tools reduce the impact their role has because they simply have too many options. For the third time now, what would nerfing every single tank's sustain actually accomplish? Would you have more to heal? No, you wouldn't. We know this because Shadowbringers lacked anywhere close to the tank sustain we have now and healers barely did anything beyond DPS. Tanks weren't solo-ing things to the extent they are now but are we really going to argue healers maybe throwing out a single oGCD made them feel any more relevant?

Once more, the core issue is encounter design being woefully undertuned. Reducing tanks back to being DPS who can take hits won't suddenly make the healers any more interesting. We'll just have two roles that are boring instead of one.

This argument's a bit odd, as much as I agree that we shouldn't strip heals from tanks.

Yes, the present low healing requirements mean that we'd still encounter a problem of (roughly) the same type even if we reduced tank's self-sustain, since even Healers' free healing would still be great enough to make GCD healing feel excessive. However, the party would still, very literally, have less excessive healing (speaking in flat terms), if tank sustain was reduced, just as it would if Healers' free (oGCD) healing were reduced.

It would be, imo, a poor approach to handling the situation, but it wouldn't be irrelevant, nor would there be no benefit to healers' place in content resulting from the expense to tanks (even if it'd arguably not be a net positive for the game, and an altogether unnecessary cost regardless).

[Rhais]

First point is a strawman argument.

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As for p3s, sure. Don't you see how absurd your argument is, though?

Hey if you do savage, and not even that but one of the last two fights. "Hey guys healers are absolutely needed in two of the 10 current trial/raid fights, you're absolutely not getting by without a healer in 20% of current content. Pay no attention to being complete deadweight in non-high end content...". Yep...

You are missing the point of the person you quoted. What is being said is more content needs to be tuned with similar incoming damage, not "just go do savage".

And yes, the content tuning is largely responsible. Saying that across the board, all tank kits are "broken beyond belief" is what is absurd.

And really, what do the healer mains complaining about tank heals think is going to change if they remove them? Since the content is generally so undertuned you might have to throw out an extra ogcd, that is about it. It wouldn't cause very much change in the gameplay experience at all. You would still be doing 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1.