So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Kolsykol]

How do you know any of that is the case besides you fantasizing about it?

One time I logged in after losing my job. That day, I played really badly. But someone like you would say, "oh, that person boosted."

Get over yourself. You are not god's gift to gaming. You don't know why someone is struggling, or where they are in their experience at that moment. New players have to go into Savage and make mistakes in order to get better. If you don't want to deal with new players, make a static of all legends. What you're suggesting here is the exclusion of most of the playerbase. No one who goes 1->90 or 80->90 directly knows how to play their Job. It takes time for most people to do their rotation correctly. Not optimally, but correctly. It takes even more time for them to be good enough to do extremes, and more than that for them to do Savages.

You don't get to gatekeep and determine when people get to try these things.

I don't think that not knowing your basic combo can be excused with '' I lost my job today ''.

You also shouldn't be anywhere near Savage if you don't even know how your skills work.
You also shouldn't join Savage because you dinged 90, you should take time to learn your Job properly otherwise you're just wasting everyones time doing something you shouldn't be doing.
So yes if you don't know how to play your Job you should be gatekept from Savage ( and Extremes ).

I'd say the same for really basic mechanics, in one of the P2S groups I was in we had a Healer who three times in a row couldn't comprehend the concept of running to the platform and using Surecast.
If you don't get something that simple in three attempts then maybe you shouldn't be there.
Same thing if you're joining a Clear group and you don't understand the limit cut, why are you so important that you get to waste everyones time why should we have to go at it for 8 hours for you to understand a simple mechanic?
Join a Practice party then maybe create one yourself for the mechanic you're having problems with.

"Sneaking in" they are using the PF interface to join a group they are qualified for. If there's an issue, the leader of the PF can just kick them, no questions asked.

There is absolutely no need for a "we kicked you because you suck, buddy" button. (Which I'm sure would be used very responsibly and not get abused endlessly.)

If the leader of the PF you're in is not kicking bad players by your standards, your solution is to join a different PF, make your own, join a static group with more exacting standards... or just suck it up and try with the group you have.

Problem is most PF leaders at least in my experience don't kick them, they just disband the group entirely so these individuals ruin it for everyone.
I think people either don't know who because they're not paying attention to others or they're afraid because they think they'll get in trouble but more often than not the bad apple doesn't actually get kicked.

A lot of people are also extremely quick to label you an elitist and turn you into the bad guy, I had this when I was having my nightmare runs in P2S and desperately trying to get a clear there was ALWAYS 2-3 people ruining it who had no idea what they were doing.
In one of the groups I was in we had a RPR and DNC who neither of which had any melds and we had DPS issues, I didn't even notice until like after 2 hours because I usually don't inspect people.
And when I brought it up they turned it around on me and acted like I was being ridiculous for expecting them to bring melded gear ( again, in a group we were having DPS issues with and died to enrage ).
Ofc group ended up being disbanded, I think we would've gotten the kill if they had come prepared but they didn't...

I just think it sucks that people like this get to ruin things and waste everyones time, when you enter Savage come prepared or don't come at all.
Even in Practice groups at least have watched a Guide unless it's a blind run.

[Wilford111]

No performance meters in-game please, lol. I think Yoshi-P knows what he's talking about when he says he's absolutely certain it will lead to a bullying issue. I'd take it one step further and say it would lead to a community issue.

The way it is now is fine. It's easy enough to spot someone under performing and if they don't meet your standards in a PF or any other high-end content, you can kick them without making a big deal out of it.

[Atelier-Bagur]

No performance meters in-game please, lol. I think Yoshi-P knows what he's talking about when he says he's absolutely certain it will lead to a bullying issue. I'd take it one step further and say it would lead to a community issue.

The way it is now is fine. It's easy enough to spot someone under performing and if they don't meet your standards in a PF or any other high-end content, you can kick them without making a big deal out of it.

Exactly, parsing is such a minuscule thing in this game unlike WoW were raids designs are designed around everyone doing optimal dpsing. We already have enough avenues for toxicity in this game, no need to add fuel to the fire with a dps performance feature. If you want to gauge your own personal performance with an addon thats your take (and your own personal risk for using). The whole point is that Yoshi-P and the devs feel like such a thing isnt needed due to the aforementioned toxic behavior such a tool can create. Again even on Savage, the most optimal way to clear them is through people understanding mechanics and everyone at the very least know how to do their job rotations and usage of skills, not people outperforming others through dps. Its the philosophy this game has been stuck with and I rather it stay that way.

[Kolsykol]

Exactly, parsing is such a minuscule thing in this game unlike WoW were raids designs are designed around everyone doing optimal dpsing. We already have enough avenues for toxicity in this game, no need to add fuel to the fire with a dps performance feature. If you want to gauge your own personal performance with an addon thats your take (and your own personal risk for using). The whole point is that Yoshi-P and the devs feel like such a thing isnt needed due to the aforementioned toxic behavior such a tool can create. Again even on Savage, the most optimal way to clear them is through people understanding mechanics and everyone at the very least know how to do their job rotations and usage of skills, not people outperforming others through dps. Its the philosophy this game has been stuck with and I rather it stay that way.

On a personal level I only use it outside to measure gear growth and for fun, it's just fun for me to see the upgrades happen.
In content I don't use it tho because I feel like it'd put pressure on me that might actually cause me to perform worse.

I also think it's pretty easy to tell if you're dishing out enough or not, I know how my Job plays I can feel when a mistake happens and how often it happens.
If we die to enrage I think it's pretty easy to tell if you were part of the problem if you're being honest with yourself.
If I do all the mechanics correctly and have 100% uptime and my rotation is flowing as it should and I am geared with food then I am not the problem.
If I am having lag issues or brain farts for some reason or die then if we die to enrage I can start thinking about whether it was my fault or not, but if I am doing what I should then I know I am in the clear I don't need a third party software to tell me that.

In P1S for example I didn't realize you could have uptime during the melee circle AoE and I was hugging the marks on the timers, that's another way of knowing too that I was doing something wrong and being a potential problem I didn't need at third party software for that either.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Which is honestly fair with your take. If everyone had this mentality then the tool would totally be fine. But unfortunately we cant trust other folks to be mature about it.

[Euphares]

Exactly, parsing is such a minuscule thing in this game unlike WoW were raids designs are designed around everyone doing optimal dpsing. We already have enough avenues for toxicity in this game, no need to add fuel to the fire with a dps performance feature. If you want to gauge your own personal performance with an addon thats your take (and your own personal risk for using). The whole point is that Yoshi-P and the devs feel like such a thing isnt needed due to the aforementioned toxic behavior such a tool can create. Again even on Savage, the most optimal way to clear them is through people understanding mechanics and everyone at the very least know how to do their job rotations and usage of skills, not people outperforming others through dps. Its the philosophy this game has been stuck with and I rather it stay that way.

And yet how exactly do you know proper job usage without using third party tools to determine what is mathematically the best usage of abilites?


Its really irresponsible to say that savage doesn't require a deeper dive into optimal play. It becomes less relevant the more gear people get (via tomestones) but any sort of time-relevant prog is gated by proper play.



The game isn't and hasn't ever been good at teaching its players how to play. At this point, it is extremely likely the devs know the high end community uses third party tools and designs content with these tools in mind. And considering how much the JP community has raged at the devs over balance, it is a pretty fair shot to say its not just an NA mentality (not saying you claimed this, but showing it is a much broader scope than just parsing.)


Players love feedback on their performance, this isn't a negative or inherently toxic trait.

[Ronduwil]

I mean it is mostly a symptom of a bigger problem which is: The game has a terrible feedback loop.

You quite literally have zero way to tell if you are playing good or bad

Pro tip: If you're inspecting the floor, you're playing bad. If you get vulnerability stacks, you're playing bad. Maximizing DPS is at the bottom of your priorities. You can't DPS if you're dead. Your healers can't DPS if they're constantly scrambling to keep you alive.

the game doesn't help you or challenge you in a way that would make you rethink your rotation. Someone could play Ice-only BLM until max level because the game won't ever tell you that's wrong, or have you fail because you are spamming Ice spells only.

I agree that this is an issue, but parsers aren't the solution to it. Someone who's gone out of their way to install/enable a parser has likely also read all their tooltips and worked out a proper rotation. A better solution, IMO, is to have some sort of in-game rotation tutor. Maybe have an Allagan dummy that analyzes your rotation and either suggests improvements or praises your efficiency. Make a mini-game of it and add it to the challenge log. Unless you're running extremes and savages (in which case you're likely on Discord and outside the scope of SE's enforcement), there's no reason to worry about anyone's DPS. I've never seen a DPS check fail in normal content that wasn't also accompanied by lots of dead bodies on the floor. I've never seen a group completely disband in this game. The vast majority of the time, the duty finder content is cleared without any wipes or echo stacks. On occasion, there's a wipe followed by some explanations, followed by success.

This is a serious problem, because the moment someone DOES tell you that you are playing wrong, its a big shock, and a lot of people don't handle this shock very well.

You're misunderstanding the source of the shock. The shock happens when someone who is playing a video game to relax and have fun encounters someone who is playing a video game as a substitute for IRL employment/achievements. No one expects a random player to suddenly start channeling their supervisor from work, and they certainly don't enjoy it. You don't have to tell anyone that they're playing wrong. More often than not, they know, and they don't care. If they cared about your opinion or wanted your tips, they would ask for it. If they ask, feel free to constructively pipe up. Better yet, if you want to educate players, create guides and post them on YouTube, Reddit, and/or Discord. The players who care will seek them out and thank you for it. There's no need to shock anyone.

[Colt47]

The real truth about why savage is hard does not involve DPS, as I can illustrate with this nameless discussion...

"Okay, you're DPS is not the problem. The problem is you got 4 damage downs during p1s that I still have no idea how you managed to survive. Additionally, you also had to get rezzed twice during p2s because you tried to soul sow during Kampeos Harmaa for "big numbers", and then proceeded to get face planted into a wall by standing too close to an exploding Lalafellen white mage wearing a bright pink piggy suite so people would not miss seeing him. Don't worry, you just need more practice."

Nameless person: "Okay I'll go practice on the target dummy!"

[LittleImp]

For what it's worth, I did enough practice runs of P1S/P2S to execute all the fight mechanics perfectly, and managed to squeeze out just enough DPS to avoid hitting enrage.

You avoided hitting enrage because someone else likely over-contributed to make up the difference. Tanks should be contributing anywhere from 4.8-5k+ at i580 generally.

Yet, my results could be much, much better despite me already clearing, and my only options right now for real-time evaluation is ACT, which I cannot get to work on my computer for the life of me, and even if I did, it's still a gray area at best, meaning the chances of getting a crackdown for it isn't exactly zero.

Fight execution on most jobs can be fully "solved" based on things like skillspeed, killtime and any downtime phases, and improving your percentile is just a matter of executing cleanly on that solution. Overall the game is much less dynamic than other MMOs, it almost turns into a rhythm game at the high-end. One of the best ways to get better at the game and find useful optimizations is to look at the timelines of players who rank in the top 10 on a given fight. Alternatively, some of the job channels in The Balance have fight-specific advice that can be helpful.

I know FFlogs is a thing, but it only seems to record performances after a clear of a certain boss, meaning that there's no way to know how your personal results were during a wipe, or when you're just wailing on a striking dummy. If there is a way to see that in FFlogs, I don't know how. I'm not good with these things. Regardless, SE should just give us an official in-game performance checker of sorts, so that I can finally have more real-time feedback of my performance without resorting to sketchy third-party tools that are technically still against ToS. If I get kicked from a party for not meeting their desired parses, oh well. To me, that's just a sign that I need to practice more, so I'll just get better until I'm good enough for said party. Or I'll make my own. No big deal. :/

FFLogs can track partial pulls, and dummy parses but they would need to be uploaded from a logfile generated via ACT. For someone who is just starting out, a log interpreter like XIVAnalysis can be okay for identifying broad mistakes, and can be used with logs other people have uploaded for you. For example it, in XIVAnalysis I can see that you have a tendency to significantly over-cap your blood gauge during phases with heavy mechanics (Channeling flow 2 and 3 in p2s).

[Ronduwil]

MNK would quad weave during fists of fire back in SB (I think) and could theoretically quad weave during Six Sided Star in ShB. I don't think there's a class you'd quad weave on nowadays without involving the slow status though... Unless you wanted to clip your GCD.

I think a lot of people are missing the joke here. You weave your off-GDCs. Your GCD skills are unweavable because they're on the GCD.

Your point is correct, though, when you're talking about quaduple weaving off-GCD skills. If your speed is fast enough, you can double weave some stuff. If you're quadruple weaving, you're probably skipping a GCD and making things worse. The point of weaving is to maximize your character's APM.