The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

[Veloran]

Ancient Allag at its height was run by Xande and Amon, a suicidal ruler who wished to see the world end and his devoted researcher. Not to mention, the Ascians were running the empire behind the scenes, if Emets statements are anything to go by.

Allag existed for thousands of years before Amon entered the picture and resurrected Xande. And yes, the Ascians were responsible for the creation of the empire, so why not tell them about the problem when they have the capability to confront it?

Little c calamities and big C ones are impossible for us to distinguish.

They actually are quite distinguishable, because for the Auspices or Ultima neither issue was aspected to any element or accompanied by any of the notable aetheric disturbances attributable to an oncoming Calamity. Meaning, they were clearly not Calamities, but just unrelated regional problems.

But even if I accepted that, the fact remains that trying to stop and failing still shows Her priorities. Why waste time and resources trying to halt an event you want to happen?

You'll note that the passage from EE is actually saying that "heroes have appeared before every Calamity to ensure mankind endures." Not to avert the crisis, but to help mankind survive through it.

Supporting the former is the scene with Minfilia on the First, where she tells Ardbert to wait, suggesting she knew he would be needed, though that was Minfilias decision, not Venats.

Any decision made by Minfilia in that situation is easily attributable to Venat - How could Minfilia herself know that Ardbert would be critical to WoL's success, to the point of reiterating that to the both of them? And if she was not even aware that Ardbert was WoL's shard saving him would serve no purpose but to make him suffer in isolation possibly for eternity, as the two would then not be capable of communicating with one another. Her choice can only be understood with Venat's foreknowledge.

Moreover, I suggest Venat knew of the events on the First and helped push things in that direction, because it is in fact the more generous interpretation of her actions at that time. Otherwise, she was handing out Crystals of Light to the WoDs, exacerbating the First's aspecting to Light and pushing it towards a Flood, purely as a massive mistake. Even for me it's difficult to believe she's that incompetent, especially when having knowledge of what will come to pass.

[EaraGrace]

Allag…

What answer did the allagans possess to the Song of Oblivion? The issue wasn’t manpower.

They...

The Sharlayans I’m sure thought similarly of Black Rose. And I vividly remember being drowned and burned during my time with the Auspices.

You'll note that the passage from EE…

So now not only is Hydaelyn not interested in halting the calamities, but her chosen as well? Once again we have to trust that she managed to halt zero calamities, and that she managed to find heroes willing to abandon their fellows and not fight against the coming doom without ever being told why they shouldn’t resist.

Any decision made by Minfilia in that situation is easily attributable to Venat…

No we can’t attribute that, Minfilia had her own thoughts and feelings. There’s no reason to believe that she couldn’t decide for herself.

Now, I do agree Minfilia likely learned some things from Venat. Where my disagreement lies is in your next paragraph and the conclusion you come to.

First, let’s once again state that exactly what she knew of events on the First is unclear. Even if she knew that Ardbert was necessary to defeat Emet, knowing he caused the calamity is another matter.

Second, they were chosen because they were worthy. The Ascians were actively working to ensure the First be overaspected with light and the only recourse was to empower heroes to stop them, Ardbert and company were the best option and won at first. She chose well.

But let’s say she did know. You’re right that granting them the Crystals increased the chance of them being the cause, but if she did that I still don’t agree that it means she wanted the Flood to happen. The Flood, due to the efforts of the Ascians, was inevitable. And, as we know in EW, she does not have the strength to warn the WoL. So she is then left with two options. Either do nothing, have the Ascians manipulate the First to fall unopposed by WoL, and thus have no way of preventing the Flood when it inevitably happens. Or, give Ardbert and Co. Crystals that ensure they can traverse the Rift and manage to halt the Flood with Minfilia.

Further, on the idea of her pushing for the Flood, there are other issues I have with it. First this would require her and others to lie to us on multiple occasions in Endwalker and Shadowbringers, which on both a textual and metatextual level is incompatible with the stories of those expansions. Second, it would require an incredibly detailed explanation of the events of Shadowbringers, including side stories which we may or may not have completed. And lastly, if we indeed told her everything, and not a cliff notes version that would’ve left out the details of the events, then she would know that in one timeline everything failed. It would be illogical and out of character for her to risk such an outcome.

[Veloran]

What answer did the allagans possess to the Song of Oblivion? The issue wasn’t manpower.

That's nothing but the thematic conclusion. The actual resolution was WoL beating up the Endsinger. At the time of Allag they should have had the resources to go there and do that.

The Sharlayans I’m sure thought similarly of Black Rose. And I vividly remember being drowned and burned during my time with the Auspices.

We have no idea what the Sharlayans thought about Black Rose, if they did at all. And a few of the Auspices using elemental magic does not equal a Calamity, nothing at the time of Tenzen was leading into one.

So now not only is Hydaelyn not interested in halting the calamities, but her chosen as well? Once again we have to trust that she managed to halt zero calamities, and that she managed to find heroes willing to abandon their fellows and not fight against the coming doom without ever being told why they shouldn’t resist.

Ensuring that people would survive it is fighting against it, in a manner of speaking. But the issues at play were long-running societal problems and a systematic imbalance in the aether, these aren't things that can be solved by a few people being told "look out for the dudes in the black robes and masks" at the eleventh hour before it happens. Even WoL too would have failed and died were it not for time travel ex machina.

No we can’t attribute that, Minfilia had her own thoughts and feelings.

When made Word of the Mother Minfilia was literally made one with Venat's thoughts and feelings. She may have been split off to go save the First but it can hardly be said that sending Ardbert away was nothing but a bout of whimsy on her part alone.

Second, they were chosen because they were worthy. The Ascians were actively working to ensure the First be overaspected with light and the only recourse was to empower heroes to stop them, Ardbert and company were the best option and won at first. She chose well.

So the First was being overaspected with Light and the solution was to flood it with even more Light? In fact if you remember the circumstances, the Ascians were actually spreading agents of Darkness around so that Warriors of Light would come to destroy them, thus creating a supremacy of Light. It would have actually been better if none of the WoDs were ever made WoLs and the coups of the Shadowkeeper werewolf army and the legion of psuedo-Voidsent were allowed to run rampant and spread Darkness everywhere. Venat's actions were strictly negative and played directly into the Ascians' hands, this is why I say it was either done intentionally or with extreme incompetence.

And, as we know in EW, she does not have the strength to warn the WoL.

But we know from EW that she does have the strength to warn WoL. Way more than enough in fact.

Or, give Ardbert and Co. Crystals that ensure they can traverse the Rift and manage to halt the Flood with Minfilia.

But it was the Ascians themselves that masterminded that? So did she plan it all or did she not?

First this would require her and others to lie to us on multiple occasions in Endwalker and Shadowbringers, which on both a textual and metatextual level is incompatible with the stories of those expansions.

Venat lying to such a degree - and being willing to sacrifice so much in pursuit of her goals - is completely in keeping with her character, as has been showcased elsewhere.

[EaraGrace]

Snip.

No it’s not. The whole point is that you need an Answer to the Song. Sending terrified conscripts to Ultima Thule, led by someone who wants to the see the world end, would not work. And don’t underestimate the contributions of the Loporrits. It was their thousands of years of expertise in space travel, plus the Aether in the Mothercrystal that allowed our travel to Ultima Thule.

Snip.

Koryu would like a word. And my point with the Black Rose example was to show how failed calamities oftentimes miss detection by the world at large. We only learned of its light aspected nature from Emet, so saying we can’t tell by the aspect doesn’t really work when we don’t have a camera pointing at the architects.

Ensuring that people would survive it is fighting against it...

So then do we agree She fought against it? Due to the nature of position She relied on proxies to help her fight against the Ascians, and we do not have a clear understanding at her effectiveness. What we do know is that Her agents were successful on many occasions in halting major threats.

Snip.

Not sure what you’re arguing against here, but my point is that Minfilias decision post Heavensward were her own, with and without info from Venat.

Snip.

The Ascians would have no point in doing so. Creating agents of Darkness was pointless if it wasn’t in service to pushing the First further to Light, as the Firsts imbalance would be held in check solely by Mitron and Loghrif. If anything they would have just left it as is and simply focused on causing a calamity on the Source. With or without the Crystals, either way they would win (slowly admittedly), the only recourse left was to be place Her Hope in those on the First, and that worked at first. Remember, it wasn’t the defeat of Mitron and Loghrif alone that started the Flood, but Mitron being tempered,. It was a stroke of luck for the Ascians (and Minfilias sacrifice) that allowed them to find victory in the way they did.

And that’s not even including the fact that those heroes may have succeeded without her aid at all. We certainly did so in Heavensward after all.

Snip.

I once again have to point out that’s not the case. If you’re saying She should kill herself and doom all the shards to save the First, then I can understand that position. But that is was you are asking her to do.

Snip.

My point is that if she knew everything she would know they need the Crystals to make their way, we know this by the dialogue in 3.3. The dilemma before her is whether she ensures the First has a glimmer of hope or no hope, as without the WoD arrival and the boon they give Her Minfilia could not be sent to the First.

Snip.

Where did she lie.

[Veloran]

No it’s not. The whole point is that you need an Answer to the Song. Sending terrified conscripts to Ultima Thule, led by someone who wants to the see the world end, would not work. And don’t underestimate the contributions of the Loporrits. It was their thousands of years of expertise in space travel, plus the Aether in the Mothercrystal that allowed our travel to Ultima Thule.

Yes, it is. And the answer we provide is nothing but a vague hope. If they had had a shot, they could have chosen to send willing soldiers, or even emotionless constructs, and they well away could have done it before Amon's time. And the Loporrits, is it really so impossible that forces of both Hydaelyn and the Ascians come together for something? They did for less during Heavensward.

Koryu would like a word. And my point with the Black Rose example was to show how failed calamities oftentimes miss detection by the world at large. We only learned of its light aspected nature from Emet, so saying we can’t tell by the aspect doesn’t really work when we don’t have a camera pointing at the architects.

Yes, Koryu was quite a fire-inclined Auspice. Yet that proves he couldn't have fueled a Calamity, because the Ascians were following the pattern of the elemental wheel for Calamities and the fire one had already happened long before. And in terms of the Eighth Calamity, the Scions missed the effects of the light because they were under a misapprehension about what Light even was, even then it was still noted everywhere, if not understood.

So then do we agree She fought against it?

Fighting to stop it and fighting for people to endure it are not the same thing. Warriors of Light saved lives during the Calamities, but we never know of them actually stopping one.

Not sure what you’re arguing against here, but my point is that Minfilias decision post Heavensward were her own, with and without info from Venat.

Who is to say whether or not it was her own, when her mind had been melded with Venat? Even uncoupled and assuming that Venat didn't tell her to spare him, Minfilia had still been privy to Venat's own thoughts and memories, one with them even. The actions of Venat and the actions of Minfilia are not unrelated and atomized.

The Ascians would have no point in doing so. Creating agents of Darkness was pointless if it wasn’t in service to pushing the First further to Light, as the Firsts imbalance would be held in check solely by Mitron and Loghrif. If anything they would have just left it as is and simply focused on causing a calamity on the Source. With or without the Crystals, either way they would win (slowly admittedly), the only recourse left was to be place Her Hope in those on the First, and that worked at first. Remember, it wasn’t the defeat of Mitron and Loghrif alone that started the Flood, but Mitron being tempered,. It was a stroke of luck for the Ascians (and Minfilias sacrifice) that allowed them to find victory in the way they did.

Their creation of servants of Darkness was in service of pushing the First towards Light, because they were puppets meant to be defeated by Warriors of Light, thus spreading the supremacy of Light. Venat's actions in empowering the WoDs was integral to their plans, as we see with Cylva's satisfaction every time each of them is granted a Crystal of Light. Without any of this, Hydaelyn serving their ends, the Ascians get nowhere and could do nothing but spread Darkness.

I once again have to point out that’s not the case. If you’re saying She should kill herself and doom all the shards to save the First, then I can understand that position. But that is was you are asking her to do.

But that IS the case. She had a massive reservoir of energy at her disposal with which she could have easily contacted anyone. When we ultimately end up uising it in Endwalker, so much is left behind unused that Zenos is able to slurp it up to fly across the universe and turn into Shinryu once more.

My point is that if she knew everything she would know they need the Crystals to make their way, we know this by the dialogue in 3.3. The dilemma before her is whether she ensures the First has a glimmer of hope or no hope, as without the WoD arrival and the boon they give Her Minfilia could not be sent to the First.

The First could never have fallen to Light to begin with if she hadn't handed out all the Crystals. What you're saying here is that she empowered them with Crystals to solve the problem created by empowering them with Crystals. Nevermind that as we see in Endwalker, Venat didn't need that power to ferry souls back and forth between shards to begin with, she was well capable of it on her own.

Where did she lie.

What, are you kidding?

[EaraGrace]

Yes, it is…

Yes tell Xande and Amon, both individuals who would love to find out and exploit Meteions Song of Oblivion.

Yes, Koryu...

Where was his aspect stated? And even if so when has that stopped the Ascians before? They used Crystal Tower for the Earth Calamity and Bahamut with his Akh Morn for the Astral aspected calamity, they are nothing if not creative.

They didn’t miss it because of that, they missed it because it was not obvious to anyone but those privy to details on its nature. It was Graha that revealed that info, info he only knew due to being from another time. The fact that Black Rose would cause a calamity wasn’t known until it happened.

Fighting to...

And what of the Seventh Umbral Calamity, where Warriors awakened to the echo by Hydaelyn and blessed with her power fought to halt it? The only reason we know of it was because we saw it play out.

Again, we can’t know if we have stopped calamities because those events are only noteworthy because they are calamities. Black Rose won’t be in any history books, because it was stopped. Ultima didn’t go on to cause destruction, because she was stopped by Hydaelyn and the Zodiac Braves.

Who is to...

That can hardly then be considered Venats decision then can it. If Minfilia learned of things as a result of her position, things that Venat didn’t directly express or impart to her, and Minfilia acted on that info, then I fail to see how you could consider Venat to be the one making those decisions. Also, Krile served the same role in EW, yet she was no more privy to Venats thoughts than we were at the time.

Their creation...

And it backfired, Venats decision to trust in the WoD worked, until Ardbert accidentally tempered Mitron. To call it incompetence is just factually false, especially as it was one of the only options left to her.

But that IS the case…

I’m sure she knew down to the exact amount how much energy a ship going to the edge of the universe would require.

Also, the fact that she didn’t also use that reservoir to save her own life, and instead relied on her dwindling aether supplies says much about unwilling she was to use that aether says something does it not?

The First could never...

This is not true. The First listed towards Light naturally, due to the fall of the 13th..

What, are you kidding?

Probably the best example of the exception proving rule, given we received two voiced cutscenes discussing that particular info dump. Still I will of course admit that she wasn’t truthful here. Much like Emet, Graha, Urianger, Minfilia, Ysayle, and Estinien we’re also not truthful with us on at least one occasion. Do you take them at their word?

[Veloran]

Yes tell Xande and Amon, both individuals who would love to find out and exploit Meteions Song of Oblivion.

As I said before, such a situation could easily predate Xande and Amon. Alternatively they could simply be deposed.

Where was his aspect stated?

Did you miss the part where he was going to set the Ruby Sea ablaze, and screamed things like "YOU SHALL ALL BURN"? He was definitely not a water Calamity, not that he was one at all. And they did clearly miss it because of that, insofar as they could not discern the cause of a very widespread phenomena due to being ignorant of the nature of Light. They did recognize the thinning of the aether itself however.

And what of the Seventh Umbral Calamity, where Warriors awakened to the echo by Hydaelyn and blessed with her power fought to halt it?

Hydaelyn never told anybody to stop the Seventh Umbral Calamity. Again, we don't even know for sure if it was her awakening people's Echoes at that time. As I said before she was a non-entity in 1.0.

Black Rose won’t be in any history books, because it was stopped. Ultima didn’t go on to cause destruction, because she was stopped by Hydaelyn and the Zodiac Braves.

Black Rose will most certainly be in history books, yes, it was a big deal. And aside from the fact that Ultima was summoned by a Warrior of Light, she too was not a Calamity. Remember that the Near Eastern Zodiac Braves that appeared before a prior Calamity and those of Dalmasca are not the same groups of people.

That can hardly then be considered Venats decision then can it.

As I said, it may be Minfilia was specifically told to do it, and if not it would still have been a decision made due to melding minds with Venat. This is not similar to Krile's situation, Minfilia literally lost her body and joined physically/spiritually with Hydaelyn.

And it backfired, Venats decision to trust in the WoD worked, until Ardbert accidentally tempered Mitron.

It didn't backfire at all, it went exactly according to their plan and infused the First with huge amounts of Light. They didn't actually want a Flood, that was a mistake yes, but all of the WoDs getting crystals to (little f) flood the world with Light was precisely what they wanted, and they couldn't have achieved their ends had Venat not played into this.

I’m sure she knew down to the exact amount how much energy a ship going to the edge of the universe would require.

She knew the distance and the ship was a construct of team bunny, her servitors. NASA knows exactly how much fuel it takes to get a rocket they designed to the moon, so yes she should have known how much it would take. This was certainly not something worth screwing the First and killing Minfilia over, if she needs more energy later she can just take more, not to mention all the power she was saving for her Primal form which was only used for a backup backup backup plan to commit suicide-by-WoL.

This is not true. The First listed towards Light naturally, due to the fall of the 13th..

That doesn't make it primed for a rejoining, that was only accomplished through Venat and the Crystals of Light. Not to mention she gave WoL SIX at the same time, to the point even Elidibus is like "Zodidamn this is WAY too much Light, I've got to get rid of you before this pops off or everything is going to get wrecked."

Still I will of course admit that she wasn’t truthful here. Much like Emet, Graha, Urianger, Minfilia, Ysayle, and Estinien we’re also not truthful with us on at least one occasion. Do you take them at their word?

There's a difference between "being untruthful" and "killing one of your friends for the purposes of feeding you a pure propaganda lie while framing it as the absolute truth of the world".