Paladin weakest Tank now

[LittleImp]

See, that's what sucks about this community. If I choose to tank in an MMO, my main focus should be keeping the entire party alive by holding aggro and having good survivability. If I wanted to worry about my DPS, I would choose a DPS class.

This mentality shows a lot with PLD and DRK...

People shunned Paladin during week 1 of the tier because bringing it actively made clearing fights more difficult. Paladin's lower DPS output had to be made up somewhere else in the party, putting additional pressure on the entire party for literally no benefit.

This whole mentality of "all that matters is DPS" is pretty toxic, and honestly FFXIV is the only MMO I've played where that is the main focus regardless of your role.

You can blame the devs for that, as it's a direct consequence of the way the game is designed. Utility is so homogenized in this game, and encounter design very rarely leaves any room for innovative tactics that would create non-dps centric metas. With all of the tanks having an extremely similar toolkit, the amount of DPS they bring to the table is naturally the only thing that really matters.

As stated already, that is just first world issues. As long as it leads to the desired result, it does not matter on the long run of things.

There are a lot of people that raid in the first few weeks who aren't aiming for world first, and this issue would still affect them heavily. These balance issues are actually most punishing for players of lesser skill, as it takes significant amounts of optimization to meet what is considered the "minimum" contribution from a tank on P4S as PLD. There is no reason to accept a balance margin this bad.

[Anhra]

There are a lot of people that raid in the first few weeks who aren't aiming for world first, and this issue would still affect them heavily. These balance issues are actually most punishing for players of lesser skill, as it takes significant amounts of optimization to meet what is considered the "minimum" contribution from a tank on P4S as PLD. There is no reason to accept a balance margin this bad.

My point is, as long as it is clearable as PLD, just like it is on any other Tank, it wont prevent People from playing their favorite choice anyway. I am aware that the Dev's arent the best when it comes down to designing Jobs in a interesting kind of way, but i dont think theyre that dense to make it straight up unplayable.

[Absimiliard]

Some accusations or something

Ah, so we're resorting to ad hominems now. Baseless ad hominems no less.

Quit moving the goal posts. This is a discussion about whether or not tank DPS matters (and more specifically if PLD's awful damage is acceptable). This is not a discussion about optimal play. If you're playing your job even remotely close to how SE intended (and do note that they are also leaning into the tank = blue DPS idea, not just the community) then you should be able to clear most content. At no point has this been disputed. That being said, Savage progression can at times very close. Having your tanks being able to push decent DPS - not even necessarily great, even if it's just average for their job - helps with that a lot. PLD is in a position where most groups don't want them because of how far behind their damage is lagging at both the "average" and optimal levels. People will say "oh, it's only 10%," but that 10% can easily be the difference between clearing or wiping to an enrage timer.

What the "average player" will notice is that they just wiped at 2% on a boss their team had successfully completed the mechanics of, 2% that wouldn't have been there if they hadn't brought a PLD over DRK or GNB.

[LittleImp]

My point is, as long as it is clearable as PLD, just like it is on any other Tank, it wont prevent People from playing their favorite choice anyway.

In practice, it just doesn't end up working like this. I know a ton of people that were pushed off of playing PLD by their static, or simply made the personal choice not to play it during prog this tier. A lot of people DO get prevented from playing under-tuned jobs.

I personally feel that playing it was a mistake, and will be leveling multiple tanks for all future tiers in case a similar situation arises in the future. Regardless of how much I love PLD, my choice to play it just had so many negative repercussions to myself and others that I can't say in good faith that it was the right decision.

[Anhra]

snip

So you're saying that its alright to just blame the Tank just because he picked the tank with the least amount of personal dps?

I think People like you are forgetting some fundamental things here. A Tank has to tank first, and then do damage. If a Tank prefers a more defensive playstyle because he doesnt want to play some clunky job like DRK, then that is not your thing to decide, unless you ARE the MT.

Dps issues are first and foremost, issues pointed towards dps jobs. If a dps dies and gets his -10% dmg penalty, is this also the Tanks fault? I dont think so.

If a Party does manage to realisticy, drop a Boss HP from 100% to, say <5% , chances are way lower than the remaining Boss HP that they get obliterated in one go and even if they did wipe, it would still be hardly a issue to simply keep trying.

So in a sense, Tank dps does matter, but it isnt a thing People should rely on, since dps is NOT a Tanks main priority.

[Undeadfire]

So in a sense, Tank dps does matter, but it isnt a thing People should rely on, since dps is NOT a Tanks main priority.

If you're doing hardcore Savage/Ultimate raids, it does matter.

[RopeDrink]

Whatever you may think about Xeno, it's funny how a rank-one via all tanks who does that content on a regular basis completely disagrees in general. See his rant at the end about favouring tank-damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KZ8kITXFb0

It's also amusing when people talk as if everything is equal. "That group died to enrage on 2% -- if they didn't have a PLD, they might have met the check..." -- such thinking assumes every player was playing all their jobs optimally and the entirety boils down to uber-tight specifics of role/job DPS. It is never so cut and dry that simply replacing Joe Soap PLD with Joe Soap Whatever would have made the difference. There are 7 other players/job to consider, and the variables of how they were played.

[LittleImp]

Whatever you may think about Xeno, it's funny how a rank-one via all tanks who does that content on a regular basis completely disagrees with you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KZ8kITXFb0

I'm all for more damage on healers and tanks, but it never has and never will boil down solely to that. We live in a world where people are grossly influenced by rumblings based on minors. It'd be the same if White Mage was topping the charts by X% -- suddenly, best healer in the world, because some people bank solely on that and not on the entire package.

It's also amusing when people talk as if everything is equal. "That group died to enrage on 2% -- if they didn't have a PLD, they might have met the check..." -- such thinking assumes every player was playing all their jobs optimally and the entirety boils down to uber-tight specifics of role/job DPS. It is never so cut and dry that simply replacing Joe Soap PLD with Joe Soap Whatever would have made the difference. It could have been made by also removing that DRG who was tanking the floor a few too many times, or swapping the pre-buff BLM to something more mobile, etc, etc -- you know, jobs who's role literally is damage.

Xeno has the benefit of being able to play with the absolute best players in the world at the snap of his fingers. He's not routinely placed in a position during early prog where he's forced to make up for someone else's shortcomings, and his perspective is informed by that.

I saw P4S enrage at 20k remaining HP week 1 in pugs. Was everyone else playing perfectly? Absolutely not. Would I have cleared the fight if I had taken any job besides PLD? Yes, and that's something that will never not bother me.

That isn't saying tank DPS doesn't help -- it obviously does -- but the higher end is often so finely tuned that you don't have to concern yourself THAT hard outside of initial prog.

Speaking for myself, I'm concerned with balance because I'm usually deeply involved in initial prog.

[Absimiliard]

Let's not forget about clear times. Progression is great and all, but a not insignificant portion of the raiding community puts a heavy emphasis on clear times as well. Is this something your average player does? No. Should the people that want to play PLD in that environment be penalized? Also no, but its current state does penalize them.

[Xiaoki]

Whatever you may think about Xeno, it's funny how a rank-one via all tanks who does that content on a regular basis completely disagrees in general. See his rant at the end about favouring tank-damage.

Rank 1 tank? What?

I checked FFLogs and I couldnt find Xenosys anywhere in the top 100 Savage Pandemonium clears.