Final Fantasy 14 Players trying WOW?

[Shurrikhan]

I think actual progression toward full flight would be better than simply be an on-off switch with the way WoW does flight unlock, especially with the timegating.

Agreed. It's odd, then, that they decided to move from exactly that (alternate tools and supplementary systems, such as rockets, hooks, and gliders -> rentals and limited flight -> unlimited but slower fight -> unlimited and full-speed flight) to what we see now. It was from their having already had and done all that that I suggested those gradations.

I think the other problem with the way WoW unlock flight is that, from a personal point of view, the open world of WoW is not interesting (that said, no open world of any MMO I've played in recent years is interesting beyond questing for the main story, including FFXIV). And so, I spent more time in the open world to unlock flight than what I would on my own. It is essentially forced content for a quality-of-life feature for that said content. It just seems like backward design.

I'd have to greatly disagree. Not every WoW zone has incredible design, but atop what all aspects of visuals alone by which the better among WoW's zones may already rival the better among XIV's, there's far more interesting use of topography and, outside of scaled areas (or prior to their becoming entirely player-scaled), mob diversity.

In regard to taking away gameplay, I think having flight should be accepted as part of it. Being able to walk, run, mount up, or fly, to decide to engage in or avoid PVP, for instance, is part of the players' choice in how they engage in the gameplay.

I disagree, so long as the zone or world affected is threatening by ground but not by air, as is typically the case initially in new WoW zones. I'd of course prefer to see them simply add aerial threats, but such is easier said than done. (And could you imagine XIV attempting that, given that its Z axis is basically a non-factor and mobs able to hit you from some 40 yalms below?)

I'm also not sure how or why PvP would factor into it. In WoW, one simply chooses to or not to partake in world PvP. Before that was the case, moreover, flying mounts (though sometimes a boon for those disadvantaged by massively lopsided faction populations in a given zone, if there was cover enough to go unseen) were known almost solely to cheapen any form of world PvP. Since PvE objectives would require grounding, flight in the open world with PvP unlocked (as on the old PvP Servers) always carried a "third-party" or "ambusher's" advantage, since one could immediately attack from their 310% movement speed flying mount at the nearest moment of opportunity but the defender could not similarly avoid this threat without being held at a stalemate, unable to leave their mount. Given the power of movement skills and CC in the game, the existence of mere ground mounts did not necessitate the same stalemates nor advantage higher gearer, burstier players (as to make them unable to see reprisal by most classes due to how quickly they can engage, kill, and escape) in the way that flight did. Since Burning Crusade, flight has led to more kills and yet fewer actual 'fights' so to speak (a smaller portion of kills contributing to 'Honorable Kill' counts) and generated to generally lower opinion of the game's World PvP. It forgoes holding, threatening, or taking ground, navigating around one another, etc., in favor of punishing whoever first partakes in PvE elements.

In terms of taking away from the feeling of a zone, I think being "artificially" grounded for such a lengthy amount of time does take away from the immersion in a world where flight does exist.

As for feeling lonely, make more interesting contents for people to want to go down on the ground even with flight unlocked.

My apologies for reordering your comments, but I wanted to address them as coupled as my response is interlinked.

I agree that so long as flight exists, seeming to suddenly un-learn how to fly is... well, bull, unless there's an obvious difference in the environment as would affect flight.

For that reason, when I first heard that HW was to have flight I --in naive, pipedream fashion-- hoped that we'd have literal (air/aether) currents that'd supplement a stamina-based flight system. You might, for instance, take a sprinting start before diving off a cliff into a deep ravine, catching a current that passes down and through the chasm, refilling stamina even as you glide or hover (chocobos' obviously aether-assisted flapping). In such a way, topography would still be relevant and, since you'd have to figure out where these (air/aether) currents flowed and how they shifted over the course of the day or different weather patterns, there'd still be an element of progression: there'd be the real, player knowledge component and then perhaps a further, subtle artificial "attunement" bonus by which stamina costs could be decreased and max speed increased with time spent in the zone or along its currents, etc. It'd neither require suspension of disbelief as our mounts repeatedly forgets how to fly just because this zone is arid and has no river instead being arid and split by a river, etc. Instead, flight would only be as different as the zone's topography and a bit of arbitrating randomness (especially if air and aether currents aren't quite one and the same).

But alas.

But anyways, it is what it is. As it stands now, regardless of any issue people might have with FFXIV's open world, one thing I'm more than satisfied with is its flight unlock system.

Same, though locking it behind the extra few sidestory quests seems a little odd to me, even if I understand that it aids the questmakers' ability to slightly push their curation upon the players. I'd still love some actual flight physics and the aforementioned unlock system, though.

[Thoosa]

I only recently tried WoW and have been playing wow (in addition to 14 - which I played for about 5 years before WoW) for about 6 months and things that stand out for me in WoW:

- no invisible walls everywhere - if I choose to jump off the edge I can, I can swim in the sea in every area, etc
- the m+ system for repeatable scaling hard content
- Torghast is fun for me - I don’t have to do 150 floors (like potd) before it becomes a challenge - also partying up feels more fun than partying up in HOH/POTD.
- Korthia feels less grindy than Bozja/Eureka - world bosses are fun, there are mushrooms and chests to open too.
- transmog system and inventory are way better
- faster gcd and sound effects when fighting enemies make it feel you are actually hitting with force (kinda a weird one I know) and combat feels much more responsive and less button bloat.
- gathering is much faster and less boring
- AH is better
- classes having multiple specs so you feel there’s more customisation

Negatives from what I’ve seen
- maintaining multiple characters seems to be a big time investment that might or might not be worth it.

I haven’t played WoW for 15 years though so it’s only my opinions based on 6 months

[DamianFatale]

Can we go one week without a WoW thread.. I guess not. One day? Please? ;-;

[raelgun]

This is such a stretch it made me laugh. I don’t play or know WOW but your statements about XIV raiding are patently false. I could come back 6 months later towards the end of a raid tier and just buy the MB gear in 5 mins, meld only the two slots that are guaranteed look at some guides and still find enough learner parties in PF to clear the tier. I’ve seen it happen for years.

Moreover, this assuming I wanted to do things the hard way. If you wanna join ffxiv recruiter or other data center specific raiding discords they always have statics recruiting for savage and they even have sections full of bored raiders that can help you clear no problem outside of a static context. They’re even BIS already so damage checks are a joke.

So you retorted with, don't play the game and get carried?

[Pibz]

WoW is definitely a good experience if you have never played it.

Shows some different designs within the same standard trinity role system. For example just within Monk you have the tank spec (Brewmaster) that instead of just mitigating damage, it delays(stagger is the name of the mechanic) the damage into a DOT, then you can reduce the DOT's potency by drinking some brews, among other things. Then you have the healer spec (Mistweaver) which one of its subspecs is healing primarily through your dps abilties (ie you punch stuff and it heals people around you). Plenty of other stuff like this.

The stuff about HAVING to do dailies every day you see in these forums is patent nonsense, you have weekly objectives you'll want to clear (and its not the end of the world if you don't, there are almost always catch up mechanics) but there's nothing major behind literal dailies, in that regard it isn't that different from doing tomestone capping in FFXIV, except it incentivizes you to do a diversity of content (open world, pve raid AND m+, pvp)

The biggest downside WoW has vs FFXIV is that alt maintenance is harder (you can't really share gear between, for example, melee dps like you do here, and you have to login, logout,etc) this is somewhat mitigated by picking a main class that can fill all 3 roles.

Not sure this is the kind of thread you should be making in this game's forums but the sheer copium people are circlejerking over is pretty hilarious

[Gortys]

Shows some different designs within the same standard trinity role system. For example just within Monk you have the tank spec (Brewmaster) that instead of just mitigating damage, it delays(stagger is the name of the mechanic) the damage into a DOT, then you can reduce the DOT's potency by drinking some brews, among other things. Then you have the healer spec (Mistweaver) which one of its subspecs is healing primarily through your dps abilties (ie you punch stuff and it heals people around you). Plenty of other stuff like this.

The stuff about HAVING to do dailies every day you see in these forums is patent nonsense, you have weekly objectives you'll want to clear (and its not the end of the world if you don't, there are almost always catch up mechanics) but there's nothing major behind literal dailies, in that regard it isn't that different from doing tomestone capping in FFXIV, except it incentivizes you to do a diversity of content (open world, pve raid AND m+, pvp)

The biggest downside WoW has vs FFXIV is that alt maintenance is harder (you can't really share gear between, for example, melee dps like you do here, and you have to login, logout,etc) this is somewhat mitigated by picking a main class that can fill all 3 roles.

I think it is the only thing I like about WoW's class (job) system - I don't have to level another monk/paladin if I want to switch my group role between dps/heal/tank.

As for dailies? I agree and disagree. If you want to "keep up" with relevant content then you may have to farm dailies. If you want to fly, there is a list of items to complete that are not nearly as quickly obtained as aether currents. That said, when I get fed up with WoW's chores? I quit for a few months until the catch-up mechanism is introduced and achieve in a couple of weeks what other's have worked on for a couple of months (which is actually a point of annoyance for some in the WoW community). Those chores are also why alt maintenance is harder.

To me WoW is not what I want to pay for regardless of their work-issues. I just don't want to support "sloppeh" designs or the game becoming more like a mobile game. Do I have a phone? Yes, but I honestly don't enjoy the elements in mobile games so finding them in WoW is a turn-off.

[Darksummoner]

This is part of the reason why I don't do these forums much. Between the WoW complainers, White Knights, and the useless whining, I may make a visit to these forums once or twice a week....Maybe

[linayar]

Quicker, not necessarily better.

The goals are alike in both cases; you can't get flight in either game until you're done with their respective zones. It's merely a difference of WoW considering the open world still a real part of the game even after you've finished the zone's main questline. After several hours of doing world content across the expansion's zones, you have your flight because that's about the point at which they determined you've experienced all even those who like open world stuff would care to experience in full and you're effectively "done" with those zones. In both cases, flight is essentially a post-content bonus, not considered a necessity for while said content is still relatively new or in play.

I do not think having flight makes the open world not a real part of the game.

As for flight being a post-content bonus, even someone who only does the MSQ in FFXIV will still go through the open world for patch MSQ content. And there are other things you can do besides the MSQ, like side quests, FATEs, hunts, guildleves, beast tribe dailies, gathering, and maps. All of those activities can benefit from having flight unlocked in all zones either by the last MSQ of the .0 patch or shortly after, depending on how focused you are at unlocking flight, for the rest of the expansion.

So, it's not a post-content bonus, but an optional post-(.0) MSQ bonus in FFXIV.

For WoW, there is also still more to do after unlocking flight, but I can also see why it can be considered a post-content bonus in terms of having to do a lot of content before unlocking flight and maybe moving on to a new zone, but that makes it less rewarding as a bonus in my opinion.

Agreed. It's odd, then, that they decided to move from exactly that (alternate tools and supplementary systems, such as rockets, hooks, and gliders -> rentals and limited flight -> unlimited but slower fight -> unlimited and full-speed flight) to what we see now. It was from their having already had and done all that that I suggested those gradations.

From what I've heard, they originally did not have flying in WoD. If true, not having more than a switch after an extensive requirement might make sense if they actually did not want flight in the game anymore.

I'd have to greatly disagree. Not every WoW zone has incredible design, but atop what all aspects of visuals alone by which the better among WoW's zones may already rival the better among XIV's, there's far more interesting use of topography and, outside of scaled areas (or prior to their becoming entirely player-scaled), mob diversity.

I don't know if we're necessarily in disagreement here, but I'm just saying that I personally need more than that to go to a zone. And WoW locks flight behind all of the reasons that I would go to the zones.

Interesting use of topography and mob diversity can be shown off during the leveling process of questing. And once you've unlocked flight, mob diversity can still be appreciated by having appropriate quests while topography can be appreciated on a grander scale from above.

I disagree, so long as the zone or world affected is threatening by ground but not by air, as is typically the case initially in new WoW zones. I'd of course prefer to see them simply add aerial threats, but such is easier said than done. (And could you imagine XIV attempting that, given that its Z axis is basically a non-factor and mobs able to hit you from some 40 yalms below?)

Outside of having aerial threats, I think being grounded during leveling is more than enough to show off the threats in the ground. Any further threats can be focused on the nature of the quests themselves as you'll still go down to do the questing. And with WoW being more willing to just have you go on a quest to kill various enemies on the ground, having flight doesn't remove those threats as you still need to engage with them to complete your quests.

I'm also not sure how or why PvP would factor into it. In WoW, one simply chooses to or not to partake in world PvP. Before that was the case, moreover, flying mounts (though sometimes a boon for those disadvantaged by massively lopsided faction populations in a given zone, if there was cover enough to go unseen) were known almost solely to cheapen any form of world PvP. Since PvE objectives would require grounding, flight in the open world with PvP unlocked (as on the old PvP Servers) always carried a "third-party" or "ambusher's" advantage, since one could immediately attack from their 310% movement speed flying mount at the nearest moment of opportunity but the defender could not similarly avoid this threat without being held at a stalemate, unable to leave their mount. Given the power of movement skills and CC in the game, the existence of mere ground mounts did not necessitate the same stalemates nor advantage higher gearer, burstier players (as to make them unable to see reprisal by most classes due to how quickly they can engage, kill, and escape) in the way that flight did. Since Burning Crusade, flight has led to more kills and yet fewer actual 'fights' so to speak (a smaller portion of kills contributing to 'Honorable Kill' counts) and generated to generally lower opinion of the game's World PvP. It forgoes holding, threatening, or taking ground, navigating around one another, etc., in favor of punishing whoever first partakes in PvE elements.

I think that's an acceptable risk for open world pvp. If people want more fair fights over mere killings, then that is what instanced pvp should provide (ignoring gear (and perhaps level?) differences since WoW may not normalize instanced pvp like FFXIV if I'm correct).

But now with warmode, they can just have it be a flightless mode if they really don't want flight being a factor in open world pvp.

My apologies for reordering your comments, but I wanted to address them as coupled as my response is interlinked.

I agree that so long as flight exists, seeming to suddenly un-learn how to fly is... well, bull, unless there's an obvious difference in the environment as would affect flight.

For that reason, when I first heard that HW was to have flight I --in naive, pipedream fashion-- hoped that we'd have literal (air/aether) currents that'd supplement a stamina-based flight system. You might, for instance, take a sprinting start before diving off a cliff into a deep ravine, catching a current that passes down and through the chasm, refilling stamina even as you glide or hover (chocobos' obviously aether-assisted flapping). In such a way, topography would still be relevant and, since you'd have to figure out where these (air/aether) currents flowed and how they shifted over the course of the day or different weather patterns, there'd still be an element of progression: there'd be the real, player knowledge component and then perhaps a further, subtle artificial "attunement" bonus by which stamina costs could be decreased and max speed increased with time spent in the zone or along its currents, etc. It'd neither require suspension of disbelief as our mounts repeatedly forgets how to fly just because this zone is arid and has no river instead being arid and split by a river, etc. Instead, flight would only be as different as the zone's topography and a bit of arbitrating randomness (especially if air and aether currents aren't quite one and the same).

But alas.


Same, though locking it behind the extra few sidestory quests seems a little odd to me, even if I understand that it aids the questmakers' ability to slightly push their curation upon the players. I'd still love some actual flight physics and the aforementioned unlock system, though.

With FFXIV, what you suggest might be too complicated for the game to handle. And I do prefer ARR/Azys Lla style of flight unlock, but I won't complain over the game wanting to invite people to do side quests.

[Clover_Blake]

I've never wanted to try WoW because I disliked the graphics and the characters, though I was sure it had to be a good game for many people to like it.

Now I don't know whether or not it's a good game, but it's still unappealing to me.

[Iriemon]

WoW was my second MMO after Asheron's Call (I loved that game). I'll say this, there are a couple of things WoW does better, and one of them is combat. Not only is it more responsive, but there is no ability bloat. There are classes I would love to try in this game, but I stop myself because I find so many abilities completely unnecessary. Glamour or transmog in WoW is also way easier to manage. But that's about it. I think XIV is a better game overall, hence why I am here.