The current State of Casters 6.05 edition - balancing discussion

[Azuri]

So now is the perfect time to put a list of what we feel should be done to fix summoner.

snip

So after 5 pages of back and forth, your solution exactly aligns with a statement I've made in my very first message of this thread?

Summoner belongs below Red Mage until it requires more than one brain cell to play.

If we were to re-introduce player skill into this discussion, and align it at the point where SMN can have higher DPS, but only in the hands of a skilled player, I would have way less issues with your insistence on it. I would also have an entirely justifiable defense against being forced to play SMN once prog is over. Because a skilled RDM player would still perform better than an average SMN. The same way it works in regards to BLM.

Right now this is not the case. Anyone can just pick up the grimoire and mash that "50 Shades of Ruin" button to win. You have admitted it yourself. Just one thread over.

People never asked restrictive gameplay which does not engage the player to think. That what was good with old Summoner and that people saying "Old Summoner was better" feel

SMN is the single brain cell, "follow the rails SE has set up for you"-job. Again - your words - not mine.

On a more tangential note, I would generally be way more receptive to your argument if it wasn't filled with hypocrisy and self-contradictions.

You claim that RDM is the easy job with easier optimization, while immediately stating that "you have options to work around". Is optimizing how you utilize those options most efficiently not the difficult part? You then proceed to complain about how hard SMN is to play in P2S (Btw, I get it, really, can we stop with that singular example?) because your rotation is highly restrictive and static. And the solution to this problem is just different gear in which you will execute the exact same on-rails static rotation but slightly faster. While figuring out that specific GCD and optimal set for this GCD might be a challenge, it has nothing to do with your personal performance in the fight.

You say that mobility doesn't justify a heavy damage tax, but keep on drawing a hard line between SMN and Physical Ranged despite them being exactly the same in this regard. Just because a job belongs to a different role it doesn't get to play by different rules. Either Physical Ranged and SMN are below all the other roles because of their mobility or mobility doesn't matter and they should all perform at a comparable level (with MCH being BLM levels, btw). Pick one.

And in that list of solutions you want to trade mobility for power. Why would you have to trade if you beleive it's not supposed to be a trade in the first place?

You are equally as defensive of your preferred job as I am. At least I have the decency to admit it.

[Aikaal]

So after 5 pages of back and forth, your solution exactly aligns with a statement I've made in my very first message of this thread?

If we were to re-introduce player skill into this discussion, and align it at the point where SMN can have higher DPS, but only in the hands of a skilled player, I would have way less issues with your insistence on it. I would also have an entirely justifiable defense against being forced to play SMN once prog is over. Because a skilled RDM player would still perform better than an average SMN. The same way it works in regards to BLM.


You are equally as defensive of your preferred job as I am. At least I have the decency to admit it.

So I guess I didn't put a list on the first topic of this thread of suggestions I'd do to fix the caster jobs.

You are also overestimating the complexity of Red Mage a lot dude.

My Eden Verse logs

Mind you the backstory why I went Red Mage is because I did week 1 prog on Paladin and cleared. I injured my left hand as a result and sustain a root irritation which left me with 2 functioning fingers on my left hand for 6 months because covid closed physiotherapy where I live. The group disbanded so I went with casual friends. I picked Red Mage, which I had never raided with in my life and I had just hit 80 with because it was the most brain dead job in the game in my eyes. Even with half a left hand, I got high purple logs. That's how much I see your main job. That,s how complex I see it and I doubt you can make anyone believe that it's more complex now. If anything, they made it easier.

Why would my one brain cell job just be straight out inferior to your one brain cell job? That's a stupid argument to rely on.

Again, anything that you say provides no proper usefulness to the thread. You have heavily biased toward your job. Same can be said to any main Summoner but any obvious main Summoner here know what proper balance is. You mainly want to have the caster job that has the best damage, best utility and best exposure. You don't want the other casters come close to you because you only want to play Red Mage. This is a Caster thread and the one job that requires the most help right now is Summoner, not Red Mage.

If you can't even agree when everybody tells you so on this forum and that even established world first players from TPS just straight up say that Summoner needs help then you're living in complete denial.

[Azuri]

Your initial list doesn't mention much in regards to increasing SMN complexity. Neither can I see anything about having less restrictive rotation, the point you have been so heavily hung up on. You just straight up asked to be put above Red Mage. If you don't see how this is not pleasant to read for a Red Mage player, spending a patch or two with the lowest damage might humble you a bit. You've had your time in the sun after SE hyperbuffed SMN early in ShB.

Also, if you wanted your thread to be a SMN circlejerk, don't name it "The current State of Casters 6.05 edition - balancing discussion". Name it like one of the other SMN only threads we have so many of.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

Your initial list doesn't mention much in regards to increasing SMN complexity. Neither can I see anything about having less restrictive rotation, the point you have been so heavily hung up on. You just straight up asked to be put above Red Mage. If you don't see how this is not pleasant to read for a Red Mage player, speding a patch or two with the lowest damage might humble you a bit. You've had your time in the sun after SE hyperbuffed SMN early in ShB.

Also, if you wanted your thread to be a SMN circlejerk, don't name it "The current State of Casters 6.05 edition - balancing discussion". Name it like one of the other SMN only threads we have so many of.

Plz rdm was by far not the lowest DPS in ShBs. I don't ever remember rdms being kicked or not being picked over smns. So how about stop trying to play the victim card like rdm was a dead job in any expac. I know I never asked to be hyperbuffed any expac. I always personally believe rdm and smn should be very close together in damage with smn slight beating them bc of the utility and rezs rdm does bring to the table. No one attacked you and no one is asking for rdm to be nerfed. So come down back to reality and stop having a powertrip. Being better than smn has really gone to your head and infected your ego so much.

I mean, objectively speaking, RDM really did spend the vast majority of its existence a meme almost entirely because of SMN. It isn't unreasonable that people with a preference for RDM would like to be allowed to to do content outside of the first two weeks of it for once. Putting SMN above RDM is going to slide them right back to Rez Mage status, particularly with how low risk SMN is now. SMN definitely needs help, but putting it in a position where it begins to eclipse RDM all over again is not the way to go about it. RDM already gets hit pretty hard in the DPS when it has to employ its utility.

And to note, RDM was changed up a bit with Endwalker. It now requires two brain cells instead of one.

The ok question to you "Why should anyone bring a smn over a rdm?" Please tell me what benefits a party gets for deciding to bring a smn over a rdm right now? Also, rdm being meme is a community problem and not a balance problem. I remember smn in ShB switching to rdm bc they didn't like smn rotation and the ghosting pet had. So I don't believe in this whole" RDM was dead after prog" meme yall keep bring up. Also at least rdm saw action during prog. Smn won't even sees that right now.

[Absimiliard]

The ok question to you "Why should anyone bring a smn over a rdm?" Please tell me what benefits a party gets for deciding to bring a smn over a rdm right now? Also, rdm being meme is a community problem and not a balance problem. I remember smn in ShB switching to rdm bc they didn't like smn rotation and the ghosting pet had. So I don't believe in this whole" RDM was dead after prog" meme yall keep bring up. Also at least rdm saw action during prog. Smn won't even sees that right now.

Currently there is no reason to bring SMN over RDM. I'm not disputing that point. I'm merely observing that putting SMN back into a position of dominance is in fact going to shaft RDM yet again. It would be a lot easier if they would just take Verraise off of dual cast. If we're ignoring job complexity as a factor, then why not let them have roughly equal DPS and similar Raise access?

[MrJPtheAssassin]

Currently there is no reason to bring SMN over RDM. I'm not disputing that point. I'm merely observing that putting SMN back into a position of dominance is in fact going to shaft RDM yet again. It would be a lot easier if they would just take Verraise off of dual cast. If we're ignoring job complexity as a factor, then why not let them have roughly equal DPS and similar Raise access?

Honestly, I agree with you with that. I always believed rdm and smn should be almost equal in damage. Even now Im not asking for a huge dps buff to put us far ahead of rdm. I just want some slight adjustments so it doesnt feel like Im sandbagging my static for going as a smn. Right now I have no other opinion for a dps. We have two melees (rpr and nin), we have a mch and a 9th member who is the raid leaders brother who playing rdm. On nights where the mch cant come we be using the rdm so Im either have to stay smn, switch to blm, or switch to a phy range. I personally suck as blm and dont like the job at savage level of play, I dont care for most phy range outside dnc who is also having problems. Smn is my only choice and it feels bad bc I know I'm going to be useless compared to the rdm.

[Madoka]

bc I know I'm going to be useless compared to the rdm.

The rDPS difference isn't that drastic. The mean difference is within 100 dps since the phoenix buff, and peak performance has RDM at about 300 dps more than SMN.
Both are above MCH in each metric, though the whole team will be losing that 1% buff if nobody swaps to a ranged dps.

[SaberMaxwell]

You are also overestimating the complexity of Red Mage a lot dude.

My Eden Verse logs
I injured my left hand as a result and sustain a root irritation which left me with 2 functioning fingers on my left hand for 6 months because covid closed physiotherapy where I live. The group disbanded so I went with casual friends. I picked Red Mage, which I had never raided with in my life and I had just hit 80 with because it was the most brain dead job in the game in my eyes. Even with half a left hand, I got high purple logs.

I think you're being a bit disingenuous by acting like you got high purples on your first clears through the fight. On Ramuh, yes, but as soon as Ifrit and Garuda it takes you six clears to get anything above 65. Your first clears of Idol are green, grey, and green. It took you four clears to get your only purple ever in Shiva. With one and a half hands, sure that's impressive and I don't want to take away that accomplishment, but don't pretend you even halfway began to optimize the job.
My own, for reference.

That's how much I see your main job. That,s how complex I see it and I doubt you can make anyone believe that it's more complex now. If anything, they made it easier.

On May 20, when you got your 92 (I'm assuming you were still playing with half a hand at this point, whether or not this is true a 92 is impressive), I got my 98 (and a 99 the next day) pulling out somewhere near 400 more rDPS and about 300 more aDPS. That extra hand, and the extra ability it gave me, allowed me to optimize with my team to do a not-inconsiderable amount more damage.
They lowered the skill floor of Red Mage but raised the skill ceiling with EW. You might be able to get in easier, heck you might even be able to parse those nice 80s and 90s keeping in mind there are a lot of players who flock to the job "because it's easy" and tend to populate the bottom rung making it easier to parse high on the job. I would argue the increase in choice for when to burst is an increase in depth--as more choice means more places to die a death of a thousand cuts when trying to perform high with the job, but this argument of what is and isn't "braindead" has been exhausting ever since Stormblood with people claiming whatever job they don't like, don't main, or are trying to talk down in the moment for whatever reason is "braindead."
SAM is braindead. RPR is braindead. I've seen some say DRG is braindead. I've seen people simultaneously say MNK is braindead and the most complex thing ever even in EW. The tanks are braindead, the healers are braindead, you press the glowy lights as DNC and get 100's, MCH is just one string of buttons pressed ad nauseum. This leads into the next quote where I kind of back off and end up agreeing with you, but it just rubs me the wrong way that you presented it as "Look I got purples despite being injured my first go round, what a braindead job that one can't optimize on!" when really, no, you trended towards low purple and blue, you were nowhere near optimal with the job.

Why would my one brain cell job just be straight out inferior to your one brain cell job? That's a stupid argument to rely on.

Honestly at this point I'll slide a bit back in this conversation because I don't believe that complexity ought to contribute to a job's performance. "Difficulty" is so subjective in this game, even its definition (are we defining difficulty as "depth of choice"? "Depth of consequence"? "Effort in execution"? Something else I might not have posted?) is in contention, let alone what stick is used to measure it. Anything is braindead if you ask the right person about the topic. To balance around "difficulty" or "busy-ness" of the jobs is something that is outright impossible because nobody agrees what "difficult" even is, and even the devs frequently don't know the weird depths players will go to to optimize their jobs so their word on the topic is about as good as anyone else's.

What I will add as a closing remark on this long, rambly post that I hope doesn't get me jailed because of the no-no site is that, in your list of proposed changes (where raise is equalized between SMN and RDM), they ought to do similar damage with neither outright outperforming the other (obviously in any case there would be over/under, but I'm talking intentional "X job must outperform Y job because Z.") MB is not outrageously better than Phoenix despite Phoenix's limitations. Mobility ought to not be taxed as it is, and the entire phys ranged should be brought up in damage alongside SMN.

[Aikaal]

I think you're being a bit disingenuous by acting like you got high purples on your first clears through the fight. On Ramuh, yes, but as soon as Ifrit and Garuda it takes you six clears to get anything above 65. Your first clears of Idol are green, grey, and green. It took you four clears to get your only purple ever in Shiva. With one and a half hands, sure that's impressive and I don't want to take away that accomplishment, but don't pretend you even halfway began to optimize the job.

I do agree logs are a pretty stupid way to point out an argument. I ado appreciate you digging the past but I don't see why you had to point out the bad logs only lol. You've also farmed your Verse logs. I did not. We have compared logs on the week of March 3rd to 5th. I got a 75 and you got a 83. I was playing RDM on raid for the first time with an injury. There's also always gonna have a skill ceiling and I can tell you there's a significant difference between an ok Summoner and a good Summoner similar to RDM. Still, I pointed it out simply because the argument that Summoner is brain dead is invalid because I also find RDM brain dead. It's all preferences and it shouldn't matter in the balance.

Not agreeing with you doesn't mean that I'm not contributing to the conversation. Your opinions are not absolute and as such are open to be challenged. Your opinion on "ranged tax" doesn't align with the precedent of how SE balanced physical ranged. Your opinion on rotational difficulty not correlating with higher damage doesn't align with the view of Director and Producer himself. I find it equally fair to challenge your opinion on support and general balance as well. Afterall, your arguments are full of double standards and fallacies. And since you have not yet deigned to adress those I consider them pretty valuable to highlight.

Honestly, we could meet in the middle as SaberMaxwell pointed out. With SMN and RDM on par with each other. Add another 200-250 rDPS to SMN and they will be within 5% variation and crit RNG of each other. One will pay for it's slightly higher support capabilites and the other for its slightly higher rotational simplicity and mobility. And no one will feel useless.

Quite frankly, if they do acknowledge the raise tax shouldn't exist and they simply turn it into a long cooldown as an instant cast. Having comparable DPS would be fine. Because while Ver Cure and Magick Barrier can be used at will compared to Rekindle and Everlasting Flight because these skills can only be used under Phoenix. There is an argument that there is so much mitigation but it devalues Magick Barrier. However, it's still slightly better.

I get why Red Mages mains are tired that raise tax should penalize them but it's the sad truth. There is a thing, a saying; Ver Raise and Ver Cure have helped recover and clear UCoB clears. It's really strong. Well, UCoB is outdated content, the same principle still applies to current raid tiers. If that can sort the feud between Summoner & Red Mage, it's probably the better option. It would affort a bit more exposure to Black Mage in progression since raise would have less value.

What remain true is that Summoner requires a change. Potency buffs would likely fix things but it'd be a cheap way to fix things. The core restrictive rotation is annoying. Having to unsync Bahamut from buff windows in a fight because its the best DPS option shows that Summoner has anti-synergy with the rest of his/her party.

All I have to say is I'm sorry that happened I honestly didn't know since I personally didn't see it happen. I still stand by what I have said over and over in this thread and I'm just tired of repeating myself to these rdm who don't want to listen to reason. I'm done, I'm checking out, they have won because I'm tired of being attacked for not wanting to feel unwanted. Two wrongs don't make a right. Again I'm done with this thread and with any ego-infected rdm who thinks smn deserves to be denied in parties just because they had to go through that themselves. That's a community problem, not a balance one.

There was indeed a time on RDM release in Stormblood. I was playing melee but Red Mage was heavily memed on. It was fixed imho during ShB but they were tuned down damage wise but had good party buffs so people would pick them. Fixing Embolden so everyone benefits from Embolden is honestly the greatest QoL they got imho.

If that make y'all Red Mages more happy, I did update the original post and added that you don't want your firepower to be under Summoners when adjustments are made on Summoners.