The current State of Casters 6.05 edition - balancing discussion

**Aikaal** · 01-10-2022 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

Complexly of a job shouldn't be used for balance. There are a lot of jobs in the game now that has simple, easy rotations(Blm being one of them) and the way they design jobs now of days complex job is a thing of the past.

Not only that but speaking of smooth brains, Black Mage Paradox meme rotation is like a 3% to 4% damage loss but you don't even cast Fire IV lol. Point taken that Summoner is not complex but has a rigid rotation to the point where you can't work around downtimes much. They've made things like Enochian brain dead which, in my opinion, adds to Summoner complexity when optimizing because I have no counter to optimize my P2S fight other than shove a ludicrous amount of spell speed to align my Bahamut with raid buffs

In case of Black Mage... Oh you need to move and you're out of instant casts? just finish your Fire rotation with Despair and you get a free instant cast in form of Paradox. Iunno, one can argue that because Black Mage has so many options to optimize it makes the job more complex but not having any option is just straight up not fun game play and complex in a sense that I still need to find a way to cover up and maximum the DPS loss.

Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Ooooor we can stop saying to nerf the damage of my dps (RDM). It's asinine to treat my job as throwaway if prog is over.

tl;dr This version of summoner doesn't feel quite done but also shouldn't be doing as little damage as it is.

I don't think any main summoner wants RDM to suffer damage loss. Seeing that Yoshida speaks of buffing Black Mage, I don't think lowering Red Mage damage is a good idea. However, they do need to properly adjust Summoner damage and let them work around a less restrictive game play. Put our gems in an oGCD button with 2 charges on something could help. That way, if I decide to delay Bahamut, I won't delay any of my elemental summons along and I won't have to be a Ruin Mage for 10 seconds.

**Scryar** · 01-10-2022 05:24 AM

Reading this thread I'm just glad this forum isn't responsible for balance changes.

**dinnertime** · 01-10-2022 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by Scryar

Reading this thread I'm just glad this forum isn't responsible for balance changes.

Are you sure? Because I've seen a lot of changes that were asked here before that have been put into the game.

**Azuri** · 01-10-2022 06:03 AM

I was mostly done with the topic but the recent interview with Yoshida about upcoming 6.08 changes has a very curious line.

・侍、黒、モのような忙しさに火力が割に合っていないジョブは調整する
They are looking into adjusting jobs that are too busy but doesn't reflect the DPS it should be outputting.

You've heard the man himself. In his vision, rotational complexity does play a role in DPS output.

**Aikaal** · 01-10-2022 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Azuri

I was mostly done with the topic but the recent interview with Yoshida about upcoming 6.08 changes has a very curious line.

・侍、黒、モのような忙しさに火力が割に合っていないジョブは調整する
They are looking into adjusting jobs that are too busy but doesn't reflect the DPS it should be outputting.

You've heard the man himself. In his vision, rotational complexity does play a role in DPS output.

He also said that about Black Mage which has the lowest cast per minute as a DPS.

You're really not getting the whole argument right?

You have ton of options to optimize on Red Mage and Black Mage because you can hold and build burst. Summoner does not have that potential. While everyone maximize their burst on P2S because theres a 9 second downtime buring a burst window, the top 10 Summoner just straight burn Bahamut without buffs because it's the best option. Reaper is busy and super easy to play for example. Summoner has no oGCD and is also easy to play. Red Mage is a damn joke to play. I can't see any difference of complexity between Red Mage and Summoner. That's purely for damage output.

For progression, Red Mage will always be better for superior res, superior support with Magick Barrier and superior healing potential in panic moment. Put 2 groups with the same skill level and have one of them have a SMN and one of them have RDM. RDM will always win. Summoner personal DPS has always been higher than Red Mage for a reason and it's because Red Mage is just more supportive. Endwalker is unbalanced in that department but you seem to believe that your job should be broken in all aspects of the game. No Summoner main want to see Red mage to be bad but Red Mage should never outdps Summoner. For this to be accepted, they'd have to gut your superior raise ability and nerf down Magick Barrier. Because Phoenix healing is restrictive and in general not taken into account because it's pure overhealing.

**Azuri** · 01-10-2022 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Aikaal

He also said that about Black Mage which has the lowest cast per minute as a DPS.

You're really not getting the whole argument right?

You have ton of options to optimize on Red Mage and Black Mage because you can hold and build burst. Summoner does not have that potential. While everyone maximize their burst on P2S because theres a 9 second downtime buring a burst window, the top 10 Summoner just straight burn Bahamut without buffs because it's the best option. Reaper is busy and super easy to play for example. Summoner has no oGCD and is also easy to play. Red Mage is a damn joke to play. I can't see any difference of complexity between Red Mage and Summoner. That's purely for damage output.

Starting to reach for it a bit. You better pick one. Either there is "ton of options to optimize on Red Mage" or "Red Mage is a damn joke to play". Either "Summoner does not have that potential" or "I can't see any difference of complexity between Red Mage and Summoner".

I think it is pretty clear. With a simple and on rails rotation SMN has there is not a lot to be "busy" about. And by Yoshida's own words, being busier warrants higher DPS.

All the talk about support is getting old and I will no longer engage you on that topic. You remain adamant on downplaying anything SMN has and making RDM that absolute beast of support abilities with on demand heal LB3 and raidwide Hallowed Ground.

**IndoX** · 01-10-2022 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by Aikaal

He also said that about Black Mage which has the lowest cast per minute as a DPS.

Casts per minute and rotational complexity aren't mutually exclusive. Black mage rotation requires foresight and knowledge of fight mechanics in order to perform at it's highest level. A bad black mage plays worse than a bad red mage or summoner. Black mage has always been one of the harder dps to perform well on, having the largest variance in damage of all dps classes. Those low casts per minute only show the value how much each cast is worth and missing several is a bigger mistake compared to other casters.

**Sunako** · 01-10-2022 07:05 AM

That's why aetherflow was great mechanic. You could play around downtime without punishment. Even if you stack spell speed, you have to spam some extra ruin3 every minute if you wanna use Bahamut/phoenix for the buffs.

**SaberMaxwell** · 01-10-2022 07:07 AM

Ah yes, a discussion about DPS balance boiling down to restorative and mitigative tools once again. This is why I love the caster role; tools and abilities like raise that should be in the realm of healers instead are one of the hottest points of debate for a damage role.

I wish they'd dump raise off the caster role entirely, give it to all three casters, add a cooldown to SMN and RDM's raise of 1 minute, or make verraise ineligible for dualcast. They've shown with Accel they can disqualify spells for specific instantcast abilities. I'm not playing Red Mage to live out my healer fantasy. If I wanted to play a healer, I have an entire role to choose from, and that role should have the neat alterations to raise like fast raise, pre-raise, strong raise, group raise, etc.

As far as Magick Barrier vs Phoenix? Yeah, in most cases Magick Barrier is more useful. However we have so much mitigation from every role at this point in the game, with almost all of it being multiplicative, that more often than not Magick Barrier doesn't even get its full 10% of usefulness (also it is demonstrably weaker than tactician, both in duration (10s vs 15s) and effect (MB mitigates only magic, tactician mitigates all damage)). So we're comparing something with what I'd rate 4/10 for usefulness (MB) with something I'd rate 3/10 (Phoenix).

Phoenix at least comes with the caveat that, if the boss is bursting during a group burst, the healers can lean on that even if just a bit and any tank hit with Rekindle doesn't need to be bothered with for a little while; 1,400 potency of free healing on a single target, with 1,000 of that coming from a regen activated via an excog-like trigger system. There's no reason to *not* hit the tank with that every time Phoenix is up, what does overheal really matter when there's no opportunity cost? Just like with any mitigation plan, the healers can actively work their cooldowns around knowing Rekindle is going out at points.

That long ramble aside, I'll reiterate my stance as ever: nerf or remove raise from casters entirely. There's a role dedicated to people who want the healer fantasy and neither RDM nor SMN are in it.

**Dyvid** · 01-10-2022 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

That long ramble aside, I'll reiterate my stance as ever: nerf or remove raise from casters entirely. There's a role dedicated to people who want the healer fantasy and neither RDM nor SMN are in it.

We could just make it a role action and remove that arguement right off the table since all casters would have access to it.

Thread: The current State of Casters 6.05 edition - balancing discussion

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