Final Fantasy 14 Players trying WOW?

[Tanis_Ebonhart]

Oh man... WoW is FINALLY bringing Flying back yet again only they made it into up to a month (or more if you don't log in every day doing dailies/tech) to unlock. By then the Zone is 110% complete thus Flying there is pointless.

WoW doesn't respect your time, TC. Don't bother with WoW until it gets its storytelling fixed and starts respecting their players time.

You have no idea how good you have it here with Aether Currents.

[Alestorm]

Don't bother with WoW until it gets its storytelling fixed

The issue with the story telling is after what they did in Cata the story became such a disconnected mess there's no way to salvage it, even before then the story telling was never that great from Blizzard. It's most likely nostalgia that convinces people they can; all modern Actiblizzion wants to do is butcher what they had. Although I found it amusing to run into the then Horde warchief as a shmuck when I started Wrath's content.

[Vahlnir]

Oh man... WoW is FINALLY bringing Flying back yet again only they made it into up to a month (or more if you don't log in every day doing dailies/tech) to unlock. By then the Zone is 110% complete thus Flying there is pointless.

WoW doesn't respect your time, TC. Don't bother with WoW until it gets its storytelling fixed and starts respecting their players time.

You have no idea how good you have it here with Aether Currents.

Yeah. I was considering maybe returning when they release the next major back, but...it sounds like they have learned absolutely nothing yet. I'll just stay away for the foreseeable future.

[Shurrikhan]

Oh man... WoW is FINALLY bringing Flying back yet again only they made it into up to a month (or more if you don't log in every day doing dailies/tech) to unlock. By then the Zone is 110% complete thus Flying there is pointless.

WoW doesn't respect your time, TC. Don't bother with WoW until it gets its storytelling fixed and starts respecting their players time.

You have no idea how good you have it here with Aether Currents.

Not everyone thinks of actually interacting with the open world as inherently disrespectful of one's time nor post-content bonuses (much like the ability to overgear content that has lost its relevance, such as for glamour/transmog) as having been denied necessities.

I'm not sure how we reached this narrative that no matter how efficient the combined rewards of travel and combat/looting are across open world content, any more than the least possible travel times (as to maximize the portion of time actually in combat or spent looting) is necessarily toxic.

I'll admit that those who like open world elements and world-immersion seem a larger portion there than here, but it is a preference. Some see having a more immersive world, or travel itself, as being as core to open-world content as challenge is to purely combat content. In the same way the game would generally be expected not to power creep raids out of challenge through massively impactful gear acquired in very little time, many expect them not to make the world and its topography irrelevant while the rewards for open world content there are still, themselves, relevant.

That's not to say I wouldn't prefer more granular unlocks for flight in the 9.1 and 9.2 zones, such as in the vein of partial flight access as had back in WotLK, or for those unlocks to be based more on time than content grinds, but there are reasons for not unlocking flight right away while the content in those zones are still wholly relevant beyond merely "milking player hours" out of players. Just like here in XIV, the money WoW makes has nothing to do with player hours and solely to do with store purchases and subscriptions.


Disclaimer: That being said, I sometimes actually go on walks and see the outside world, and I don't think I'd prefer to teleport to work and back over having a scenic 20-minute commute, so I might just be crazy.

[linayar]

Not everyone thinks of actually interacting with the open world as inherently disrespectful of one's time

I think the problem is that the open world in WoW is made in such a way that people feel it is not right to allow others to unlock flying before them. The idea is that, for you to enjoy being grounded, everybody else has to be grounded as well.

So the whole flying unlock is forced upon everyone even if some of them want to fly as that's how they prefer to engage with the open world of WoW. I get that you can't please everyone. Even in FFXIV, some people think aether currents is too much of a requirement for flight unlock. But I do think pathfinder and this new system in 9.2 is a bit extreme.

[Shurrikhan]

I think the problem is that the open world in WoW is made in such a way that people feel it is not right to allow others to unlock flying before them. The idea is that, for you to enjoy being grounded, everybody else has to be grounded as well.

So the whole flying unlock is forced upon everyone even if some of them want to fly as that's how they prefer to engage with the open world of WoW. I get that you can't please everyone. Even in FFXIV, some people think aether currents is too much of a requirement for flight unlock. But I do think pathfinder and this new system in 9.2 is a bit extreme.

I get that. I actually really like navigating topography, myself, so long as the zone is well done and makes that interesting (think gliders and grappling hooks in Stormheim and Zulda'zar or High Mountain, respectively), and I do agree that if there's an easy means of removing that element of gameplay then it makes it feel like that might as well not exist, so I tend to prefer something more like the late-Legion catchup systems.

For instance, let's say flight is unlocked at certain gradations (gliding -> stamina-based flight beyond gliding -> greater stamina and increased flight/glide speeds) over X number of weeks. I.e., by the time most non-altoholics would see noticeably diminished returns for time invested in the new zone, all flight capacities are unlocked. Players can do additional activities mostly outside the normal grind loops, such as those that tend to take you out exploring in more depth, to progress towards those unlocks earlier. And with that, the zone stays more like an actual zone, rather than just a loot chest with chore-based daily keys. (Of course, whether that area of impact matters will still depend greatly upon how engaging or barebone the zone is and how its reward loops are handled.)

The main thing is that it should feel like (A) an optional investment, rather than a necessary first step, and (B) like it doesn't detract from the feeling of a zone as a zone, insofar as that can be managed.

(In the same vein, I'd say, for instance, that no Anima ought to have been required for Covenant Teleporters, Command Tables, or the like, as their increase to later efficiency, even if you ended up too burned out after getting them to reap their rewards, made them feel obligatory. I'd rather they had simply gained tiers of access from Renown ranks themselves and any anima then be spendable on gear and cosmetics. Of course, not having those teleporters doesn't much increase immersion, as it's mostly just cutting out the generic between-zone flightpath travel, and the Command Tables are already restricted by follower acquisition and levels, so I wouldn't mind them being almost instantly unlockable, regardless of Renown, either. I just don't feel that the likes of the 9.1 and 9.2 zones, though they in particular were nothing special, especially compared to Nazjatar and Gnomeragon or the likes of Legion's bonus zones, would similarly face no costs to gameplay from immediately unlocked flight.)

[linayar]

...

For instance, let's say flight is unlocked at certain gradations (gliding -> stamina-based flight beyond gliding -> greater stamina and increased flight/glide speeds) over X number of weeks. I.e., by the time most non-altoholics would see noticeably diminished returns for time invested in the new zone, all flight capacities are unlocked. Players can do additional activities mostly outside the normal grind loops, such as those that tend to take you out exploring in more depth, to progress towards those unlocks earlier. And with that, the zone stays more like an actual zone, rather than just a loot chest with chore-based daily keys. (Of course, whether that area of impact matters will still depend greatly upon how engaging or barebone the zone is and how its reward loops are handled.)

The main thing is that it should feel like (A) an optional investment, rather than a necessary first step, and (B) like it doesn't detract from the feeling of a zone as a zone, insofar as that can be managed.

...

I think actual progression toward full flight would be better than simply be an on-off switch with the way WoW does flight unlock, especially with the timegating. But I don't think that would be worth the effort from the devs' perspective, unlike something simple like just having multiple ground speeds.

I think the other problem with the way WoW unlock flight is that, from a personal point of view, the open world of WoW is not interesting (that said, no open world of any MMO I've played in recent years is interesting beyond questing for the main story, including FFXIV). And so, I spent more time in the open world to unlock flight than what I would on my own. It is essentially forced content for a quality-of-life feature for that said content. It just seems like backward design.

In terms of taking away from the feeling of a zone, I think being "artificially" grounded for such a lengthy amount of time does take away from the immersion in a world where flight does exist. It's fine to be grounded during leveling, but I think players should be able to fly while doing max level questing.

In regard to taking away gameplay, I think having flight should be accepted as part of it. Being able to walk, run, mount up, or fly, to decide to engage in or avoid PVP, for instance, is part of the players' choice in how they engage in the gameplay.

As for feeling lonely, make more interesting contents for people to want to go down on the ground even with flight unlocked.

But anyways, it is what it is. As it stands now, regardless of any issue people might have with FFXIV's open world, one thing I'm more than satisfied with is its flight unlock system.

[Shurrikhan]

I think actual progression toward full flight would be better than simply be an on-off switch with the way WoW does flight unlock, especially with the timegating.

Agreed. It's odd, then, that they decided to move from exactly that (alternate tools and supplementary systems, such as rockets, hooks, and gliders -> rentals and limited flight -> unlimited but slower fight -> unlimited and full-speed flight) to what we see now. It was from their having already had and done all that that I suggested those gradations.

I think the other problem with the way WoW unlock flight is that, from a personal point of view, the open world of WoW is not interesting (that said, no open world of any MMO I've played in recent years is interesting beyond questing for the main story, including FFXIV). And so, I spent more time in the open world to unlock flight than what I would on my own. It is essentially forced content for a quality-of-life feature for that said content. It just seems like backward design.

I'd have to greatly disagree. Not every WoW zone has incredible design, but atop what all aspects of visuals alone by which the better among WoW's zones may already rival the better among XIV's, there's far more interesting use of topography and, outside of scaled areas (or prior to their becoming entirely player-scaled), mob diversity.

In regard to taking away gameplay, I think having flight should be accepted as part of it. Being able to walk, run, mount up, or fly, to decide to engage in or avoid PVP, for instance, is part of the players' choice in how they engage in the gameplay.

I disagree, so long as the zone or world affected is threatening by ground but not by air, as is typically the case initially in new WoW zones. I'd of course prefer to see them simply add aerial threats, but such is easier said than done. (And could you imagine XIV attempting that, given that its Z axis is basically a non-factor and mobs able to hit you from some 40 yalms below?)

I'm also not sure how or why PvP would factor into it. In WoW, one simply chooses to or not to partake in world PvP. Before that was the case, moreover, flying mounts (though sometimes a boon for those disadvantaged by massively lopsided faction populations in a given zone, if there was cover enough to go unseen) were known almost solely to cheapen any form of world PvP. Since PvE objectives would require grounding, flight in the open world with PvP unlocked (as on the old PvP Servers) always carried a "third-party" or "ambusher's" advantage, since one could immediately attack from their 310% movement speed flying mount at the nearest moment of opportunity but the defender could not similarly avoid this threat without being held at a stalemate, unable to leave their mount. Given the power of movement skills and CC in the game, the existence of mere ground mounts did not necessitate the same stalemates nor advantage higher gearer, burstier players (as to make them unable to see reprisal by most classes due to how quickly they can engage, kill, and escape) in the way that flight did. Since Burning Crusade, flight has led to more kills and yet fewer actual 'fights' so to speak (a smaller portion of kills contributing to 'Honorable Kill' counts) and generated to generally lower opinion of the game's World PvP. It forgoes holding, threatening, or taking ground, navigating around one another, etc., in favor of punishing whoever first partakes in PvE elements.

In terms of taking away from the feeling of a zone, I think being "artificially" grounded for such a lengthy amount of time does take away from the immersion in a world where flight does exist.

As for feeling lonely, make more interesting contents for people to want to go down on the ground even with flight unlocked.

My apologies for reordering your comments, but I wanted to address them as coupled as my response is interlinked.

I agree that so long as flight exists, seeming to suddenly un-learn how to fly is... well, bull, unless there's an obvious difference in the environment as would affect flight.

For that reason, when I first heard that HW was to have flight I --in naive, pipedream fashion-- hoped that we'd have literal (air/aether) currents that'd supplement a stamina-based flight system. You might, for instance, take a sprinting start before diving off a cliff into a deep ravine, catching a current that passes down and through the chasm, refilling stamina even as you glide or hover (chocobos' obviously aether-assisted flapping). In such a way, topography would still be relevant and, since you'd have to figure out where these (air/aether) currents flowed and how they shifted over the course of the day or different weather patterns, there'd still be an element of progression: there'd be the real, player knowledge component and then perhaps a further, subtle artificial "attunement" bonus by which stamina costs could be decreased and max speed increased with time spent in the zone or along its currents, etc. It'd neither require suspension of disbelief as our mounts repeatedly forgets how to fly just because this zone is arid and has no river instead being arid and split by a river, etc. Instead, flight would only be as different as the zone's topography and a bit of arbitrating randomness (especially if air and aether currents aren't quite one and the same).

But alas.

But anyways, it is what it is. As it stands now, regardless of any issue people might have with FFXIV's open world, one thing I'm more than satisfied with is its flight unlock system.

Same, though locking it behind the extra few sidestory quests seems a little odd to me, even if I understand that it aids the questmakers' ability to slightly push their curation upon the players. I'd still love some actual flight physics and the aforementioned unlock system, though.

[linayar]

Quicker, not necessarily better.

The goals are alike in both cases; you can't get flight in either game until you're done with their respective zones. It's merely a difference of WoW considering the open world still a real part of the game even after you've finished the zone's main questline. After several hours of doing world content across the expansion's zones, you have your flight because that's about the point at which they determined you've experienced all even those who like open world stuff would care to experience in full and you're effectively "done" with those zones. In both cases, flight is essentially a post-content bonus, not considered a necessity for while said content is still relatively new or in play.

I do not think having flight makes the open world not a real part of the game.

As for flight being a post-content bonus, even someone who only does the MSQ in FFXIV will still go through the open world for patch MSQ content. And there are other things you can do besides the MSQ, like side quests, FATEs, hunts, guildleves, beast tribe dailies, gathering, and maps. All of those activities can benefit from having flight unlocked in all zones either by the last MSQ of the .0 patch or shortly after, depending on how focused you are at unlocking flight, for the rest of the expansion.

So, it's not a post-content bonus, but an optional post-(.0) MSQ bonus in FFXIV.

For WoW, there is also still more to do after unlocking flight, but I can also see why it can be considered a post-content bonus in terms of having to do a lot of content before unlocking flight and maybe moving on to a new zone, but that makes it less rewarding as a bonus in my opinion.

Agreed. It's odd, then, that they decided to move from exactly that (alternate tools and supplementary systems, such as rockets, hooks, and gliders -> rentals and limited flight -> unlimited but slower fight -> unlimited and full-speed flight) to what we see now. It was from their having already had and done all that that I suggested those gradations.

From what I've heard, they originally did not have flying in WoD. If true, not having more than a switch after an extensive requirement might make sense if they actually did not want flight in the game anymore.

I'd have to greatly disagree. Not every WoW zone has incredible design, but atop what all aspects of visuals alone by which the better among WoW's zones may already rival the better among XIV's, there's far more interesting use of topography and, outside of scaled areas (or prior to their becoming entirely player-scaled), mob diversity.

I don't know if we're necessarily in disagreement here, but I'm just saying that I personally need more than that to go to a zone. And WoW locks flight behind all of the reasons that I would go to the zones.

Interesting use of topography and mob diversity can be shown off during the leveling process of questing. And once you've unlocked flight, mob diversity can still be appreciated by having appropriate quests while topography can be appreciated on a grander scale from above.

I disagree, so long as the zone or world affected is threatening by ground but not by air, as is typically the case initially in new WoW zones. I'd of course prefer to see them simply add aerial threats, but such is easier said than done. (And could you imagine XIV attempting that, given that its Z axis is basically a non-factor and mobs able to hit you from some 40 yalms below?)

Outside of having aerial threats, I think being grounded during leveling is more than enough to show off the threats in the ground. Any further threats can be focused on the nature of the quests themselves as you'll still go down to do the questing. And with WoW being more willing to just have you go on a quest to kill various enemies on the ground, having flight doesn't remove those threats as you still need to engage with them to complete your quests.

I'm also not sure how or why PvP would factor into it. In WoW, one simply chooses to or not to partake in world PvP. Before that was the case, moreover, flying mounts (though sometimes a boon for those disadvantaged by massively lopsided faction populations in a given zone, if there was cover enough to go unseen) were known almost solely to cheapen any form of world PvP. Since PvE objectives would require grounding, flight in the open world with PvP unlocked (as on the old PvP Servers) always carried a "third-party" or "ambusher's" advantage, since one could immediately attack from their 310% movement speed flying mount at the nearest moment of opportunity but the defender could not similarly avoid this threat without being held at a stalemate, unable to leave their mount. Given the power of movement skills and CC in the game, the existence of mere ground mounts did not necessitate the same stalemates nor advantage higher gearer, burstier players (as to make them unable to see reprisal by most classes due to how quickly they can engage, kill, and escape) in the way that flight did. Since Burning Crusade, flight has led to more kills and yet fewer actual 'fights' so to speak (a smaller portion of kills contributing to 'Honorable Kill' counts) and generated to generally lower opinion of the game's World PvP. It forgoes holding, threatening, or taking ground, navigating around one another, etc., in favor of punishing whoever first partakes in PvE elements.

I think that's an acceptable risk for open world pvp. If people want more fair fights over mere killings, then that is what instanced pvp should provide (ignoring gear (and perhaps level?) differences since WoW may not normalize instanced pvp like FFXIV if I'm correct).

But now with warmode, they can just have it be a flightless mode if they really don't want flight being a factor in open world pvp.

My apologies for reordering your comments, but I wanted to address them as coupled as my response is interlinked.

I agree that so long as flight exists, seeming to suddenly un-learn how to fly is... well, bull, unless there's an obvious difference in the environment as would affect flight.

For that reason, when I first heard that HW was to have flight I --in naive, pipedream fashion-- hoped that we'd have literal (air/aether) currents that'd supplement a stamina-based flight system. You might, for instance, take a sprinting start before diving off a cliff into a deep ravine, catching a current that passes down and through the chasm, refilling stamina even as you glide or hover (chocobos' obviously aether-assisted flapping). In such a way, topography would still be relevant and, since you'd have to figure out where these (air/aether) currents flowed and how they shifted over the course of the day or different weather patterns, there'd still be an element of progression: there'd be the real, player knowledge component and then perhaps a further, subtle artificial "attunement" bonus by which stamina costs could be decreased and max speed increased with time spent in the zone or along its currents, etc. It'd neither require suspension of disbelief as our mounts repeatedly forgets how to fly just because this zone is arid and has no river instead being arid and split by a river, etc. Instead, flight would only be as different as the zone's topography and a bit of arbitrating randomness (especially if air and aether currents aren't quite one and the same).

But alas.


Same, though locking it behind the extra few sidestory quests seems a little odd to me, even if I understand that it aids the questmakers' ability to slightly push their curation upon the players. I'd still love some actual flight physics and the aforementioned unlock system, though.

With FFXIV, what you suggest might be too complicated for the game to handle. And I do prefer ARR/Azys Lla style of flight unlock, but I won't complain over the game wanting to invite people to do side quests.

[Tanis_Ebonhart]

Not everyone thinks of actually interacting with the open world as inherently disrespectful of one's time nor post-content bonuses (much like the ability to overgear content that has lost its relevance, such as for glamour/transmog) as having been denied necessities.

I'm not sure how we reached this narrative that no matter how efficient the combined rewards of travel and combat/looting are across open world content, any more than the least possible travel times (as to maximize the portion of time actually in combat or spent looting) is necessarily toxic.

I'll admit that those who like open world elements and world-immersion seem a larger portion there than here, but it is a preference. Some see having a more immersive world, or travel itself, as being as core to open-world content as challenge is to purely combat content. In the same way the game would generally be expected not to power creep raids out of challenge through massively impactful gear acquired in very little time, many expect them not to make the world and its topography irrelevant while the rewards for open world content there are still, themselves, relevant.

That's not to say I wouldn't prefer more granular unlocks for flight in the 9.1 and 9.2 zones, such as in the vein of partial flight access as had back in WotLK, or for those unlocks to be based more on time than content grinds, but there are reasons for not unlocking flight right away while the content in those zones are still wholly relevant beyond merely "milking player hours" out of players. Just like here in XIV, the money WoW makes has nothing to do with player hours and solely to do with store purchases and subscriptions.


Disclaimer: That being said, I sometimes actually go on walks and see the outside world, and I don't think I'd prefer to teleport to work and back over having a scenic 20-minute commute, so I might just be crazy.

Grinding for months on end for rep and to re-unlock Flying for the 9,001+ time isn't respecting the players time. Especially when unlocking it is so far in an expansion and by the time you do it then the zone is 110% complete with nothing to do in it anymore.

WoW doesn't respect a players time. It's why they keep adding more and more massive time sinks, make features intentionally require 8-10 steps when it could have easy been 1-3 steps. I played WoW since Beta. I've watched as WoW has gotten worse and worse in this regard. It reached a point where I had to dedicated a lot of hours every single day just to stay relevant in WoW. Real life finally caught up and I realized how much time WoW wasted out of me and how the Devs don't respect me having a life or other games to play as well.