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  1. #1
    Player
    Dracosavarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    128
    Character
    Brianna Islen
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lammas View Post
    If it break in 3 seconds then that means you just prevented yourself from taking 25 % of your max health worth of damage in those 3 seconds. You are also completely ignoring the fact that you can use TBN cooldown is 15 so it's going to be up way more often than those "far more powerful mitigations".
    2 TBN's a Minute. Realistically speaking, with respect to a Drk's rotation. A variable duration of Nullification being up ranging from 2 to 14 seconds of total uptime, that does not heal us, provides no mitigation effects, explicitly tied to a damage resource which is required to fuel it, that must be monitored and held in reserve at the cost of our damage resource...

    Vs Bloodwhetting, Heart of Corundum, or Holy Shelltron that has a fixed duration that is actually up and running longer than TBN, costs absolutely nothing for Gunbreaker and Warrior to utilize and can also be used twice per minute, that mitigates damage and heals the user as well. ( And in Bloodwhetting's case, shields you as well )

    Bluntly, yes, they are more powerful. And arguably far, far more useful. If a Dark Knight is holding back their mana to fuel TBN's constantly, they are sacrificing something they shouldn't have to.
    (4)
    Last edited by Dracosavarian; 01-04-2022 at 02:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Crater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    399
    Character
    Jade Nixx
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracosavarian View Post
    A variable duration of Nullification being up ranging from 2 to 14 seconds of total uptime,
    You're way too hung up on duration. The correct metric here in a dungeon-pull context is damage prevented.

    A shield provides 100% mitigation until it's broken. In a situation where incoming damage is constant and uniformly distributed, a shield that lasts 3 seconds is equivalent to 9.375 seconds of 32% mitigation (Holy Sheltron gives you 4 seconds of 32% mitigation), or 15 seconds of 20% mitigation (The final 4 seconds of Holy Sheltron). The damage prevented, despite an 8 second duration compared to 3, averages out to only 2.08 seconds of a shield.

    At that point, if you're comparing the two skills directly, you're weighing up Holy Sheltron's 1000-potency heal and a "sometimes you'll have it" possibility of banking an extra 50 Oath Gauge versus TBN's 1/3rd greater direct damage reduction and a lower cooldown that (over time) trends toward getting 50% more casts than you get out of Sheltron.

    There are other use cases where you'd start looking at different metrics (singletarget raid bosses have very different considerations than dungeon pulls, obviously, dungeon bosses are different from dungeon pulls in a way that disfavours TBN, etc) but in dungeon pulls TBN tends to be slightly ahead of Holy Sheltron most of the time, occasionally very slightly behind, and generally beats out Heart of Corundum in any realistic scenario. The idea that DPS is sacrificed to use extra casts of TBN is not relevant for dungeon pulls, for example, even though that may be a concern in a raid environment.
    (3)

  3. #3
    Player
    Lammas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    117
    Character
    Combo Lammas
    World
    Omega
    Main Class
    Fisher Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracosavarian View Post
    2 TBN's a Minute. Realistically speaking, with respect to a Drk's rotation. A variable duration of Nullification being up ranging from 2 to 14 seconds of total uptime, that does not heal us, provides no mitigation effects, explicitly tied to a damage resource which is required to fuel it, that must be monitored and held in reserve at the cost of our damage resource...

    Vs Bloodwhetting, Heart of Corundum, or Holy Shelltron that has a fixed duration that is actually up and running longer than TBN, costs absolutely nothing for Gunbreaker and Warrior to utilize and can also be used twice per minute, that mitigates damage and heals the user as well. ( And in Bloodwhetting's case, shields you as well )

    Bluntly, yes, they are more powerful. And arguably far, far more useful. If a Dark Knight is holding back their mana to fuel TBN's constantly, they are sacrificing something they shouldn't have to.
    Everything that Crater said there covers what I'm about to but I'll respond myself anyway. This is talking about dungeons. You're not losing anything by using TBN on cooldown in a pack of mobs. If you're using it once a minute in a dungeon mob pull I'm not envious of the healers that get you on DRK in their dungeons. No wonder people think DRK is weak in dungeons if people are sitting on it's most powerful tool.

    Also the duration variance is completely irrelevant. What you're looking at is that it breaks at which point it's prevented 25 % of your max health of incoming damage. You could realistically get 3-4 uses where it breaks in any mob pull. With 3 you've effectively healed yourself for 75 or your heath. If you get a 4th then you're looking at a benedictions worth of shields. And this is something you can just keep doing on every single mob pull while combining it with your other mits.
    (2)

  4. #4
    Player
    Dracosavarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    128
    Character
    Brianna Islen
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lammas View Post
    Everything that Crater said there covers what I'm about to but I'll respond myself anyway. This is talking about dungeons. You're not losing anything by using TBN on cooldown in a pack of mobs. If you're using it once a minute in a dungeon mob pull I'm not envious of the healers that get you on DRK in their dungeons. No wonder people think DRK is weak in dungeons if people are sitting on it's most powerful tool.

    Also the duration variance is completely irrelevant. What you're looking at is that it breaks at which point it's prevented 25 % of your max health of incoming damage. You could realistically get 3-4 uses where it breaks in any mob pull. With 3 you've effectively healed yourself for 75 or your heath. If you get a 4th then you're looking at a benedictions worth of shields. And this is something you can just keep doing on every single mob pull while combining it with your other mits.
    The very fact that you feel the need to try and turn this around into a personal insult, completely invalidates what you are trying to espouse in my opinion, and shows that you are not interested in debate. Objectivity in this matter, is clearly not your goal. It amuses me that you feel the need to turn to that.

    I've been around since 1.0, I know how to play Dark Knight, and use TBN in Dungeons every chance it is available I get. But to sit there and act like everything is perfectly fine with TBN, and Dark Knight in turn when so very many are voicing complaints, many healers among them, on such a vast scale flies in the face of the argument.

    It frustrates me when folks espouse that Dark Knight is perfectly fine, and nothing is wrong with it. Nothing to see here. When clearly the kit is messy, janky and ill thought out, is not fun to play at all, and provides nowhere near the amount of sustain and durability that Paladin, Warrior, and Gunbreaker does. And the reason most always end up in turn using as their excuse as to why Dark Knight is fine, as we are seeing here, is TBN.

    Were TBN so utterly, insanely powerful in comparison, then why can Dark Knight not endure the level of insane pulls in dungeons that Warrior, Gunbreaker, and Paladin can that we are seeing?

    Greater Duration of Mitigation + Healing bestowed vs greater number of incoming damage over a period of time matters. Dark Knight Pales in comparison to the other jobs right now in sheer wall to wall pulls with no stop. To act otherwise is ignoring what we are seeing actively happen and also ignoring the voices of so many who are giving their valid complaints in the hopes of seeing Dark Knight corrected.

    To you and Crater, sorry, I am going to agree to disagree. And I will remain fixed in my thoughts and opinion.
    (7)
    Last edited by Dracosavarian; 01-04-2022 at 10:52 PM. Reason: Grammar