So you're telling me..

[ZiraZ]

I think reaper's damage is a bit too high. Good samurais should always beat them.

I feel dps damage wise should be: samurai > monk = reaper > dragoon > ninja = black mage > summoner > red mage > machinist > bard > dancer

samurai > dragoon = ninja > black mage > monk > reaper > summoner > red mage > machinist > bard > dancer
rDPS speaking
makes more sense to me after monk and reaper pay some of their utility cost

[LunarEmerald]

samurai > dragoon = ninja > black mage > monk > reaper > summoner > red mage > machinist > bard > dancer
makes more sense to me after monk and reaper pay some of their utility cost

dragoon is the melee with the most support damage buffs and trick attack is the still the biggest damage increase in the game. There's a reason why the devs keep ninja as the weakest melee.

Even if you argue reaper's arcane circle is on par with battle litany, dragoon can still partner up with somebody else to increase their damage by 5%. It's like a weaker dance partner since it's not permanent but still provides a good boost..
Trick attack is a 5% damage increase to the entire party (regardless how far apart they are) with a much better uptime than arcane circle.

[ZiraZ]

dragoon is the melee with the most support damage buffs and trick attack is the still the biggest damage increase in the game. There's a reason why the devs keep ninja as the weakest melee.

damage buffs are not utility

[LunarEmerald]

damage buffs are not utility

Damage buffs come with the biggest penalty to damage. That's how it's always worked in this game. The more damage support you provide, the weaker your personal damage will be.

[ZiraZ]

Damage buffs come with the biggest penalty to damage. That's how it's always worked in this game. The more damage support you provide, the weaker your personal damage will be.

sorry I was assuming we're using rDPS for this tier thing
at least in my opinion after the damage buffs have been taken into account buffing the raid, DRG and NIN should come out on top by a few 2 digit numbers or so ahead of monk and RPR who have mantra and AC and then SAM #1

[IruruCece]

dragoon is the melee with the most support damage buffs and trick attack is the still the biggest damage increase in the game. There's a reason why the devs keep ninja as the weakest melee.

Even if you argue reaper's arcane circle is on par with battle litany, dragoon can still partner up with somebody else to increase their damage by 5%. It's like a weaker dance partner since it's not permanent but still provides a good boost..
Trick attack is a 5% damage increase to the entire party (regardless how far apart they are) with a much better uptime than arcane circle.

And yet Ninja's raid and personal DPS are considerably lower than Reapers, and it's long been obvious that Trick Attack is not necessary, much less desired, by most statics short of high end raid teams that actually can take full advantage of TA with the rest of their team. It's the least played job in the entire game, provides less DPS than any other melee, requires more apm than most other jobs to provide mediocre damage, and is competing with all of the ranged jobs for best of the worst in terms of output. And even for average groups in party finder/the rest of us, why bother taking a Ninja when a Reaper contributes more? Why bother taking a Ninja when a Monk contributes more? Why bother with a Ninja when a Red Mage offers better utility and damage? Hell, even despite their lower DPS across the board, a Summoner can still offer a rez to a struggling group or a group looking to prog even if it's ugly and filled with deaths throughout the encounter.

Trick Attack is not strong enough as a raid buff to justify Ninja's current standing, much less the effort the job demands to get the most out of it compared to a freestyle Reaper or Samurai, for a worse result overall. It's more than obvious that players across the board feel the same, which is why comparatively few Ninjas are being taken into the existing endgame.

There have been threads on these boards in the past with NIN players asking for TA to be removed from the game if it meant their personal output would increase. There is a growing discontent among some of those players that they have apparently been balanced around a buff that isn't even necessary for any raid, at any skill level, to succeed. Something has got to give in terms of the job's design, because players are already giving up on it for greener and more personally satisfying pastures.

[Kolsykol]

And yet Ninja's raid and personal DPS are considerably lower than Reapers

Wtb 10% Trick Attack back.

[Insertusernamehere]

samurai > dragoon = ninja > black mage > monk > reaper > summoner > red mage > machinist > bard > dancer
makes more sense to me after monk and reaper pay some of their utility cost

Just curious why MCH must have LOW dps than red mage? I haven't tried MCH on this expansion they have more utility now?

[LunarEmerald]

Just curious why MCH must have LOW dps than red mage? I haven't tried MCH on this expansion they have more utility now?

Physical range should always be below magical range because they have 100% free movement. Red mage has nowhere near the mobility of physical range.

[Insertusernamehere]

Physical range should always be below magical range because they have 100% free movement. Red mage has nowhere near the mobility of physical range.

Okay.. which means they are still useless :3 good to know ty.