Tank healing is to high

[Absimiliard]

That would assume that (1) people prefer being OP over being rewarded for their skill

A not insignificant number of people want this very thing, failing to realize that it's ultimately going to result in them burning out and either leaving or swapping to DPS anyway.

Granted, I myself do enjoy not being beholden to healers in dungeons. I think it's a good change, but that level of survivability should not simply be handed to you. You should be have to earn it.

[Gemina]

That would assume that (1) people prefer being OP over being rewarded for their skill and (2) somehow that reducing tank mechanics to actually do and be rewarded for doing well while increasing tank capacity, for a third expansion in a row, would somehow suddenly have the opposite effect from the prior two expansions.

"Yes, let's give them less to do, making it so any skilled player really should switch to DPS for any significant carry potential since a monkey could have nearly their impact, and just buff the hell out of their role to compensate" has become the classical solution, though, yes. (For all the good it's done to help our number of tanks or, along a similar trajectory of change, healers.)

I don't think it has to be assumed that some players will take being OP over needing to be skilled seven days a week. Observation will tell you that. Observation will also point out that despite the [subjective] ease of play, and power tanks have, along with the high rewards it gets through roulettes, mounts, and short queue privilege; it is still the least played role in the game; so clearly there is something else about it that deters more players from taking the role.

Tanking in this game, despite all the changes, always has and always will be PvE from the other side of the field. When you view 3 to 23 other players literally responding to what you're doing with the boss, it can be like looking over the edge of a high cliff. This won't be much of an issue for tank mains, and a lot of what is viewed as ease of play can be tied to the amount of experience they have in the role.

If the definition of being OP in FFXIV is having a surplus of what is required to perform your role, then healers also fall under that category. The more experienced ones also talk about having less to do, so it would seem to me that ease of play is also a circumstance of being OP. Which points me back to my initial statement in this post. Requiring for these roles to have more skill to execute their duties makes the game more difficult to play, basically for everyone as less tanks and healers in the queues means more wait times for those who want to play DPS jobs.

The solution might not be one everyone agrees with, but it is a solution all the same. It might have even worked too well and to the point of being a detriment to players as queue times to get in still average around an hour opposed to a few minutes before the expansion launch.

[Gemina]

Granted, I myself do enjoy not being beholden to healers in dungeons. I think it's a good change, but that level of survivability should not simply be handed to you. You should be have to earn it.

I wouldn't say it's just given to you. Particularly for WAR and PLD since they start @30 and after leveling MRD and GLD respectively. The abilities tanks get and their enhancements are gained through leveling, which for the sake of argument has to be done in PvE content. However, even if you did just give it to someone new, that sustainability is going to be a lot to ask for, and a healer will very much have to still keep a watchful eye on that tank as the sequence of skills a tank uses during pulls can be derped, and lower their ability to survive the pull. Optimizing your toolkit to survive longer will only come with experience, and nothing less.

I am not a tank main, but I do enjoy playing it in most content, so take it from me when I say there is so much that goes into what you guys do.

[AFuzzyMu11in]

Should it be taken into consideration that as the most needed/least played role in the game, it would only make sense and be fair to also make tanks the most well-rounded? Even bordering OP?

This I'm glad you get it of all people Gem. You play healer and tank don't you? I think people who play healers/tanks especially in DF/PF understand the reason why things are they are imo.

[Semirhage]

I dunno, I look at designing the tank and healer roles to make their "primary" responsibility as braindead, passive, and unengaging as possible while also refusing to give them more to do elsewhere and I don't see "masterful class designer with their finger on the pulse of their playerbase". I instead see "circlejerk of DPS mains who don't give a flying crap about tanking or healing, and would rather design them to be impossible to fail at so their own DF experience isn't hampered by those weird non-DPS and they can feel 'skilled' on the rare occasion they feel like putting on a tank suit for a roulette".

Tomayto, to-mah-to.

[Navnav]

This I'm glad you get it of all people Gem. You play healer and tank don't you? I think people who play healers/tanks especially in DF/PF understand the reason why things are they are imo.

I'm sure what he wrote will go over the heads of most here, or they will just ignore it to complain more....

[Navnav]

I dunno, I look at designing the tank and healer roles to make their "primary" responsibility as braindead, passive, and unengaging as possible while also refusing to give them more to do elsewhere and I don't see "masterful class designer with their finger on the pulse of their playerbase". I instead see "circlejerk of DPS mains who don't give a flying crap about tanking or healing, and would rather design them to be impossible to fail at so their own DF experience isn't hampered by those weird non-DPS and they can feel 'skilled' on the rare occasion they feel like putting on a tank suit for a roulette".

Tomayto, to-mah-to.

Reality is a hard concept to grasp when one is so heavily invested in their own thoughts.
What is braindead for you, probably isn't for many others. Luckily the developers understand that making a game for 90% of the player base is better than for the 10%.

[Shurrikhan]

This won't be much of an issue for tank mains

And that's the problem. Dumbing down a role to where there is now little performance gap to maining it will ultimately lead to fewer people maining it once the honeymoon period is over.

If the definition of being OP in FFXIV is having a surplus of what is required to perform your role, then healers also fall under that category.

No, I simply compared its combined passive mitigation, active mitigation, healing, and damage against previous expansions. If those were each balanced, then to now have an extra third the healing and mitigation (and double the passive miti compared to StB) and an extra quarter the damage would be, yes, likely overpowered.

That tanks have heals is fine. That tanks have ally-targetable heals is fine. That tanks have 30 to 70% the healing of a healer atop so much passive mitigation atop more damage than healers that spend not a single offensive GCD... is not. There was no need to just throw added capacity at tanks, all while reducing the skill required to optimize it, and there was every need to give tank mains more mechanics and some decent ceiling height to play with and towards.

[ForteNightshade]

This I'm glad you get it of all people Gem. You play healer and tank don't you? I think people who play healers/tanks especially in DF/PF understand the reason why things are they are imo.

As a tank main, what I end up doing with my bloated toolkit is play extremely aggressively. I'll eat every mechanic with no concern whatsoever for vuln stacks if it means sacrificing uptime. I can throw away CDs on those AoEs instead since I won't need them anyway. From a healer perspective, I play "how low can you go!" So I hope you're comfortable sitting at 20% even as a DPS because unless there's an upcoming raidwide, I'll heal with oGCDs and nothing else. "What if the DPS eat stuff they shouldn't?" Well... better hope Terra's off cooldown.

I'm being mildly exaggerative here, though I do play pretty aggressively. My point is players in these respective roles put all their focus on damage nowadays because that's literally all they're rewarded for. No one cares if you're a good "healer". They care you're a good hybrid DPS who heals, occasionally.

[Shurrikhan]

I dunno, I look at designing the tank and healer roles to make their "primary" responsibility as braindead, passive, and unengaging as possible while also refusing to give them more to do elsewhere and I don't see "masterful class designer with their finger on the pulse of their playerbase". I instead see "circlejerk of DPS mains who don't give a flying crap about tanking or healing, and would rather design them to be impossible to fail at so their own DF experience isn't hampered by those weird non-DPS and they can feel 'skilled' on the rare occasion they feel like putting on a tank suit for a roulette".

Tomayto, to-mah-to.

To be fair, that's any "holy trinity" design in a nutshell. The moment the devs see no need to balance the roles against each other, they quickly compress to a single primary role and two which are taken merely as compositional slot-tax that someone's stuck filling, at which point needless capacity is somehow given as solution for a lack of opportunity to meaningfully use the kits and gameplay basics those other two roles already have. Precasting heals? Why? Moving the boss? Who needs that?