Parsing unfair but okay?

[Undeadfire]

High raid teams are not highly focused on DPS only, it's an additional requirement using the jobs tools, and the communication.

Tanks: DPS, Mitis, Reprisal, raid group mitis, communicating with your Tank mate, and responding to raid buffs.
DPS: DPS, Addles, Feints, positioning, self heal, responding to raid buffs and timing of raid buffs.
Healers: DPS, healing efficiently, avoiding over healing, timing of raid buffs, communicating with Healer Mate, proper use of O-GCDs.

Healers for example may achieve a good parse, but they're not up to scratch if they're lacking solid healing department.

DPS maybe a strong point of getting raid groups, however like I said, you need to perform the job well of what it can do, not just high level of DPS.

[Kaurhz]

So then, if ACT didn't read memory, but I manually copied and pasted the same information, you would be ok with parse runs?

That's the whole point of it, yes. Unless someone openly admits to having used ACT then you really can't make the distinction of whether someone is actually using it or just Excel, and at that point you turn the discussion of it into more something that is philosophical/fundamental such as manually calculating each damage entry by a given party member and then diving that total by the length of the fight, and then you take it a step further with Excel. Just multiple ways of parsing the combat data.

I don't know how you managed to glean that I have a distaste for it. To be frank I don't care if you parse in a parse run, nor do I care if you do it in run whereby enrage is actually a thing. Just don't try and reach for the stars with an argument about discord constituting as a third party tool that could be a bannable offense.

[HyoMinPark]

This could be be a me problem because I am an ESL. But I gotta ask ... is English such a limited language that the word "discrimination" need to be used so frequently? In my own language it's a heavy and critical word, reserved for serious social problem only. Not something liberally threw around whenever someone don't get their way ... in a video game no less.

But like I said, maybe that's just me.

It is not. However, it has become a popular buzzword people like to throw around. To the point it is beginning to lose its meaningfulness.

What the OP is describing isn’t discrimination—it’s a static laying down basic requirements for any applicants to their group; which is common for a lot of statics, and especially ones that consider themselves to be higher-tier (which it seems like this is what the OP is aiming for). I’m assuming they are using “discrimination” to refer to how PS4/PS5 players are unable to run a parser on their own, but that’s never stopped console raiders from being decent players. They just have to rely on other to upload the actual log, but the website tools that are actively used in bettering one’s performance are as available to console players as they are PC players.

[Menriq]

That's the whole point of it, yes. Unless someone openly admits to having used ACT then you really can't make the distinction of whether someone is actually using it or just Excel, and at that point you turn the discussion of it into more something that is philosophical/fundamental such as manually calculating each damage entry by a given party member and then diving that total by the length of the fight, and then you take it a step further with Excel. Just multiple ways of parsing the combat data.

I don't know how you managed to glean that I have a distaste for it. I don't care, what I do care about is people trying to reach incredibly hard to make a point. Discord isn't even remotely comparable.

I'm not thinking one way or the other. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from. They literally say "No third party tools". It's not hard to objectively say those who are using voice comms have an advantage over those who aren't. They don't say "No third party tools, but Discord is ok". What I fail to understand is, by your admission, if ACT and Excel are doing the same thing, why would you have an issue with HOW the data is collected, if the data and the result are the same?

[Kaurhz]

I'm not thinking one way or the other. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from. They literally say "No third party tools". It's not hard to objectively say those who are using voice comms have an advantage over those who aren't. They don't say "No third party tools, but Discord is ok". What I fail to understand is, by your admission, if ACT and Excel are doing the same thing, why would you have an issue with HOW the data is collected, if the data and the result are the same?

Yes and this is stretching the definition of a third-party tool to the absolute maximum wherein it becomes logical fallacy. Discord facilitates communication. The fights in this game at anything beyond normal mode aren't really designed around the idea that you're using a party chat to communicate your ideas. A little critical thinking goes a long way as to tell you why these aren't even remotely comparable.

By their own admission:
- Modifying, analyzing, integrating, and/or reverse-engineering game software or data.
- Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game.

The 'how' of how that data is collected and analysed is what determines if it violates the terms of service or not. They aren't doing it on the basis of end-result but rather method. Given that neither discord, nor Excel, nor a physical calculator violate either of the following then it's really a no brainer. As they've stated they frankly don't care if you do or don't. Neither do I. They'll be punishing people for bad behaviour long before they even bother punishing you for the use of ACT. They also went on to state that if this ever changed then you accept the personal responsibility of getting sanctioned due to it.

[Gyson]

Searching your name on FFlogs, you have parses for Shadowbringers. However the majority are in post-Echo and you have parsed quite low. Have a lookie through what you cast and it should help you improve ♥

I'm assuming you didn't mean it this way, but I read this and it feels like we've reached a point where someone's performance is being shamed publicly on the official FFXIV forums, and I'm immediately thinking "this is why we can't have nice things".

I really don't care if someone uses a parser to improve their personal performance. The problem I have with it is that people try to sell the idea of a parser as a self improvement tool but it always evolves into something far worse - like judging the performance of another player. I've used parsers in other MMOs, both for myself and to decide who does and doesn't go raiding with a team. I have had to be "that guy" that has uncomfortable conversations with other players about their DPS whilst explaining why they're not being slotted again this week.

We justify it by saying that it's for the good of the group, but somehow parsing almost always results in toxicity or stupidity (e.g. ignoring mechanics in the pursuit of parsing higher than everyone else).

I'd personally prefer not having that happen in this game. I keep watching players pushing the line in FFXIV a little more each year and trying to normalize different aspects of parsing every step of the way, and anyone that has been down this road enough times knows it's leading to an increasingly toxic environment. It also can lead to a vicious cycle where developers are creating more and more content for a minority at the expense of the majority, and we eventually end up with a soulless game that has dumped all it's eggs into top-tier high-end raiding. Kind of like WoW.. which I left years ago because I could see the writing on the wall. I would prefer that not happen here.

[EaMett]

That's a bit ambiguous. What are some other hurdles that would be introduced? The worst case scenario I can see is they take the player along on some runs, using those outings to decide whether they're a fit for their static or not, and then declining them membership on the team. How exactly is that a greater evil?

Well, in reality, if you're approaching this from a non-parse stance, you would be coming from a place where you don't even know which classes do more damage, which do less. What gear to wear, food to eat, or materia to meld (do you want crit? det? tenacity for tank right? spell speed for healer maybe?). We wouldn't really know if healer dps is required (the dps in the group just might be bad?), etc. etc. The list goes on quite a bit
In that world, hitting enrage would be frequent and nobody would know why. Finding a candidate on par with the skill level of the group would be really hard. Sure your candidate survived the mechanics.. That's kinda the minimum effort really. But what of their output?
As a result, the worst that could happen is pulling in a candidate that would lead you to enrages for a long time. And you might not even know it's them. Group disbands from frustration and rince and repeat.

One could make the argument that you would measure people's worth based on striking dummies/kill time and enmity. But then you're just trading "that BLM sucks because he does 4k dps" with "that BLM sucks because he didn't kill x in 30s" or "because he's below the ninja on the enmity list (if you even figured out blm should be above nin in the first place)".
Might as well use a parser.

[Saraide]

Yes and this is stretching the definition of a third-party tool to the absolute maximum wherein it becomes logical fallacy. Discord facilitates communication. The fights in this game at anything beyond normal mode aren't really designed around the idea that you're using a party chat to communicate your ideas. A little critical thinking goes a long way as to tell you why these aren't even remotely comparable.

By their own admission:
- Modifying, analyzing, integrating, and/or reverse-engineering game software or data.
- Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game.

The 'how' of how that data is collected and analysed is what determines if it violates the terms of service or not. They aren't doing it on the basis of end-result but rather method. Given that neither discord, nor Excel, nor a physical calculator violate either of the following then it's really a no brainer. As they've stated they frankly don't care if you do or don't. Neither do I. They'll be punishing people for bad behaviour long before they even bother punishing you for the use of ACT. They also went on to state that if this ever changed then you accept the personal responsibility of getting sanctioned due to it.

If you had an excel macro setup to quickly display the data you want, copied out the combat log into that excel file and used it to harrass someone in game, you could and absolutely would get punished for it.

[Menriq]

I'm assuming you didn't mean it this way, but I read this and it feels like we've reached a point where someone's performance is being shamed publicly on the official FFXIV forums, and I'm immediately thinking "this is why we can't have nice things".

I really don't care if someone uses a parser to improve their personal performance. The problem I have with it is that people try to sell the idea of a parser as a self improvement tool but it always evolves into something far worse - like judging the performance of another player. I've used parsers in other MMOs, both for myself and to decide who does and doesn't go raiding with a team. I have had to be "that guy" that has uncomfortable conversations with other players about their DPS whilst explaining why they're not being slotted again this week.

We justify it by saying that it's for the good of the group, but somehow parsing almost always results in toxicity or stupidity (e.g. ignoring mechanics in the pursuit of parsing higher than everyone else).

I'd personally prefer not having that happen in this game. I keep watching players pushing the line in FFXIV a little more each year and trying to normalize different aspects of parsing every step of the way, and anyone that has been down this road enough times knows it's leading to an increasingly toxic environment. It also can lead to a vicious cycle where developers are creating more and more content for a minority at the expense of the majority, and we eventually end up with a soulless game that has dumped all it's eggs into top-tier high-end raiding. Kind of like WoW.. which I left years ago because I could see the writing on the wall. I would prefer that not happen here.

You've been around since at least 2014. You realize parsing has been around since before then, and even FFLogs goes back to HW. In essence, this has been around since the beginning. Since you have experience, let me ask you this. If you didn't have a parser, how would you have known who to have "that talk" to about DPS? Sure, people might not fail mechanics, but damage can still be low enough to not hit enrage. How do you determine if you have a weak link or not if everyone thinks it's not them? Take it one step further, how would one even know where they need to improve?

[Kaurhz]

If you had an excel macro setup to quickly display the data you want, copied out the combat log into that excel file and used it to harrass someone in game, you could and absolutely would get punished for it.

Yes because you're being punished for harassment, not for Excel.