Parsing unfair but okay?

[Gyson]

Are you using any voice app, or any of your fc mates use it? If thats the case you can start report them as well as yourself, third party tools are not allowed!! Do you realize how ridiculous it sounds? And eye for an eye and everyone would end blind

The flaw with this argument is that the developers have stated that external voice chat programs are not prohibited. They have also said that using utilities that interact with the game (and analyzing game data) are prohibited. You can do you, but let's not use a logical fallacy to push a point.

It would remove the current hurdle and introduce a bunch of other ones. It's really a matter of choosing your poison.
Making sure your static is made up of members with equivalent skill tiers is, in my opinion, the lesser of two evils.

That's a bit ambiguous. What are some other hurdles that would be introduced? The worst case scenario I can see is they take the player along on some runs, using those outings to decide whether they're a fit for their static or not, and then declining them membership on the team. How exactly is that a greater evil?

[Yamr3]

The flaw with this argument is that the developers have stated that external voice chat programs are not prohibited. They have also said that using utilities that interact with the game (and analyzing game data) are prohibited. You can do you, but let's not use a logical fallacy to push a point.



That's a bit ambiguous. What are some other hurdles that would be introduced? The worst case scenario I can see is they take the player along on some runs, using those outings to decide whether they're a fit for their static or not, and then declining them membership on the team. How exactly is that a greater evil?

Watch you DPS down a training dummy and time you compared to what the going average is, above average, and best are doing.

EDIT: People will find a way to measure each other. Plenty of casual groups out there that just want x role filled and don't really care about performance. Nothing wrong with those groups either but making other groups lives harder just because they have a filter for their groups, doesn't change how groups who don't are about performance are going to operate.

[Gyson]

Watch you DPS down a training dummy and time you compared to what the going average is, above average, and best are doing.

And that would be fine. The player was given a chance at that point and then it's on them to prove themselves. But the difference is they didn't have to break the terms of service (or ask someone else to) to do it. And in your example we have players actually interacting instead of immediately shutting doors on one one another because of a third-party tool that exists outside of the game. That sounds like an improvement to me.

[Yamr3]

I mean, technically, it's not against the TOS. They've reiterated their stance on Parses. For self-improvement only and not being used in a way to ruin another person's gameplay, it's fine as it is now. I mean, how is it any different than building up a resume for your job? You work at other places to build your resume to then give yourself a shot.

There's no "improvement" in making filtering people for your group more tedious. If asking you to join a public run on your own time and spend an hour to get some verifiable experience done is too much, you're probably looking to join the wrong groups.

[Menriq]

The flaw with this argument is that the developers have stated that external voice chat programs are not prohibited. They have also said that using utilities that interact with the game (and analyzing game data) are prohibited. You can do you, but let's not use a logical fallacy to push a point.

They really aren't using a fallacy. In the ACT video from Yoshi-P, he literally uses calculators and Excel as similar examples where people could ask if they are "third party tools".

Watch you DPS down a training dummy and time you compared to what the going average is, above average, and best are doing.

So, how would you figure out the going average, above average, and best are doing without a parser?

[Kaurhz]

They really aren't using a fallacy. In the ACT video from Yoshi-P, he literally uses calculators and Excel as similar examples where people could ask if they are "third party tools".


So, how would you figure out the going average, above average, and best are doing without a parser?

Yes because in effect they both adhere to the the same purpose in that they're calculating output damage. The main distinction between is that one directly reads that data from the game, and with Excel you're just copying and pasting the data from the chat log into Excel and then running macros.

Unless we've suddenly come upon a case scenario where Discord is more than just a text/voice chat application and expands into something that directly reads from the game then it will remain a logical fallacy.

[Menriq]

Yes because in effect they both adhere to the the same purpose in that they're calculating output damage. The main distinction between is that one directly reads that data from the game, and with Excel you're just copying and pasting the data from the chat log into Excel and then running macros.

Unless we've suddenly come upon a case scenario where Discord is more than just a text/voice chat application that directly reads from the game then it will remain a logical fallacy.

So then, if ACT didn't read memory, but I manually copied and pasted the same information, you would be ok with parse runs?

[Kaurhz]

So then, if ACT didn't read memory, but I manually copied and pasted the same information, you would be ok with parse runs?

That's the whole point of it, yes. Unless someone openly admits to having used ACT then you really can't make the distinction of whether someone is actually using it or just Excel, and at that point you turn the discussion of it into more something that is philosophical/fundamental such as manually calculating each damage entry by a given party member and then diving that total by the length of the fight, and then you take it a step further with Excel. Just multiple ways of parsing the combat data.

I don't know how you managed to glean that I have a distaste for it. To be frank I don't care if you parse in a parse run, nor do I care if you do it in run whereby enrage is actually a thing. Just don't try and reach for the stars with an argument about discord constituting as a third party tool that could be a bannable offense.

[Menriq]

That's the whole point of it, yes. Unless someone openly admits to having used ACT then you really can't make the distinction of whether someone is actually using it or just Excel, and at that point you turn the discussion of it into more something that is philosophical/fundamental such as manually calculating each damage entry by a given party member and then diving that total by the length of the fight, and then you take it a step further with Excel. Just multiple ways of parsing the combat data.

I don't know how you managed to glean that I have a distaste for it. I don't care, what I do care about is people trying to reach incredibly hard to make a point. Discord isn't even remotely comparable.

I'm not thinking one way or the other. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from. They literally say "No third party tools". It's not hard to objectively say those who are using voice comms have an advantage over those who aren't. They don't say "No third party tools, but Discord is ok". What I fail to understand is, by your admission, if ACT and Excel are doing the same thing, why would you have an issue with HOW the data is collected, if the data and the result are the same?

[Kaurhz]

I'm not thinking one way or the other. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from. They literally say "No third party tools". It's not hard to objectively say those who are using voice comms have an advantage over those who aren't. They don't say "No third party tools, but Discord is ok". What I fail to understand is, by your admission, if ACT and Excel are doing the same thing, why would you have an issue with HOW the data is collected, if the data and the result are the same?

Yes and this is stretching the definition of a third-party tool to the absolute maximum wherein it becomes logical fallacy. Discord facilitates communication. The fights in this game at anything beyond normal mode aren't really designed around the idea that you're using a party chat to communicate your ideas. A little critical thinking goes a long way as to tell you why these aren't even remotely comparable.

By their own admission:
- Modifying, analyzing, integrating, and/or reverse-engineering game software or data.
- Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game.

The 'how' of how that data is collected and analysed is what determines if it violates the terms of service or not. They aren't doing it on the basis of end-result but rather method. Given that neither discord, nor Excel, nor a physical calculator violate either of the following then it's really a no brainer. As they've stated they frankly don't care if you do or don't. Neither do I. They'll be punishing people for bad behaviour long before they even bother punishing you for the use of ACT. They also went on to state that if this ever changed then you accept the personal responsibility of getting sanctioned due to it.