So you're telling me..

[Maverick_Haas]

With all this in mind, I doubt you can call this brain dead. When I mained BLM, the most complicated part of the rotation was knowing when to move and saving instant casts for that. For BLM you do have some things to pay attention to, enochan, thunder, polyglot stacks, but ultimately your rotation doesn't rely on setting up your burst window, at least from my lvl 80 knowledge. Your main concern is to use procs and xeno for moving, knowing when to move, and spamming f4. Things do get more complicated with BLM once you start doing no b3/b4 rotations with transpose for optimal AF uptime, but iirc the dps gain from those were not worth doing as regular rotations and were even referred to as meme rotations.

So with all this in mind, yes RPR does have a bit of tuning to do, but it shouldn't be regarded as a utility job and nerfed to the ground. Arcane crest could be argued more helpful than anything SAM or BLM have due to the heal. Arcane circle, though it does have a little raid utility, is largely used in a greedy fashion, you could take away the damage buff and it wouldn't bother us. But with this said, because a DPS has actually raid utility does not mean that they shouldn't be able to pull high DPS, I find the idea of this reductionist.

I want to also remind people that RPR is a new melee dps, and a LOT of people changed to RPR. We are seeing an oversaturation of RPRs, especially in higher dps, precisely because skilled players are playing RPR. This doesn't mean RPR is completely fine, or that samurai is being underperformed by less skilled players, but it speaks for itself if some jobs outshine RPR in certain fights. If you actually look at the MAX percentile, DRG outperforms SAM, so do we now nerf DRG? MNK outperforms RPR, so.... nerf everything if it out DPS SAM? I think there's more here than people are actually seeing.

[Kolsykol]

Snip.

Most of what you said was essentially just listing off and describing abilities and what they do.
Like Reaper is complex and not braindead cuz 3 gauges?
And stuff like not overcapping Soul Gauge isn't exactly supporting your argument here, you literally have to not be paying attention to what you're doing at all to overcap it.
I wish I had it that easy on MNK with Chakras especially with the new Brotherhood which turned it into a nightmare.
I'd even say that Kenki management is more difficult and it's not even difficult.
The most difficult thing on Reaper is essentially keeping your fingers in check and not using other weapon skills than Gibbet and Gallows after Gluttony and Blood Stalk.

If you want to make the argument about burst windows then the same could be said about Xeno on BLM and Ley Line placement and when to use it alone adds a lot of depth and requires you to have more knowledge of the fight even moreso when getting into min-maxing.
Reaper is easier than other Jobs in this regard too even if some Jobs like SAM have been simplified in this manner too.

And no most people don't use their Jobs to their max potential, but that's not how balancing works.
Jobs are not balanced around the average skill level that's why there's such a huge difference historically between the average BLM and a great BLM.
BLM shouldn't get buffed because the average BLM is kinda not that great with positioning etc, the devs give you a Job and then it's up to you to perform or not perform.
It's the same with your experience and gear etc, people are obviously judging the Jobs based on the same gear etc it's just disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Like I dunno but you just listed off a bunch of abilities and then conveniently ignored how other Jobs have less forgiving mechanics and how BLM for example actually works in practice in a real fight.
If you played BLM then you'll know that you're being a bit disingenuous about it here.

[Maverick_Haas]

Like I dunno but you just listed off a bunch of abilities and then conveniently ignored how other Jobs have less forgiving mechanics and how BLM for example actually works in practice in a real fight.
If you played BLM then you'll know that you're being a bit disingenuous about it here.

Correct. I listed things to ensure everything was understood. Overcapping and such are not being used here as a form of complexity, but rather what I'm trying to elaborate here is managing multiple resources such that you are always executing gluttony off CD and keeping your timers in line with burst window. A single mistakes can lead to drifting gluttony which will mean that you can miss it in your raid buff window.

I'm by no means saying that BLM is less complex than RPR. I know very well that BLM requires fight knowledge to know when and where to place LL and burst. When to ensure you have xeno/proc for movement. Using sharp on CD and ensuring it's consumed with T3 while also not overcapping T3. It certainly is more complex, but my point is that in comparison RPR has more timer management to ensure a maximized burst windows. RPR certainly does have an easier skill floor, but maxing DPS and ensuring your hitting your windows along with fight mechs can make it harder than some.

[Scuoll]

RPR certainly does have an easier skill floor, but maxing DPS and ensuring your hitting your windows along with fight mechs can make it harder than some.

I read your original post and i really appreciate this kind of discussion, however, while some of the points you bring up are true, especially that burst window timings with double-triple enshroud under arcane circle. are not trivial because of the enshroud 15s cd, overall the reality is that these optimization dont matter that much at current tuning levels, all the gauges and skills you described in practice are not that punishing, they mostly mean you decide when to spend and when you can just 1 2 3 and do a mechanic unless you are close to overcapping, which is not that hard to avoid.

Look at fflogs, here are the links for the extreme trials at 95 percentile, 75 and 40 :
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/42/#dataset=95
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/42/#dataset=75
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/42/#dataset=40

As you can see, reaper's lead over other jobs grows the lower you go, meaning that lower skilled reapers are comparatively better than their peers, and are also always in 1st place, meanwhile other jobs fluctuate with varying skill levels, summoner goes down the more skilled the players are, drg goes up, etc.
What this means is that reaper is not that susceptible to player skill as other jobs, even with all those gauges and skills, what are the worst mistakes you can do? Drift gluttony? Cast a few void/cross reapings or communio outside of buffs? These are not punishing mistakes, which is why the gap between an average reaper and a good one is not that big, and the gap between an average reaper and an average other job is instead quite big. In the end, does it make sense for the class with easiest skill floor to also have the highest ceiling and the best utility?

Also in your first post you said you wanted proof that arcane crest is indeed broken, i will link a few logs that i put in my first post in this thread again, i dont think there is even an argument here, a melee dps healing the party for more than some tanks? Just compare arcane crest and something like shade shift, or compare it to drg which doesnt even have a defensive, do you think its good balance if one class has it all, both the damage and the utility? It definitely should be accounted for somewhere in the overall power budget.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/XbA2B...aling&source=4
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/9r8R6...ing&source=783
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...=DPS&boss=1059

[Maverick_Haas]

Ookay, so I'm finding that some of the logs are being jumbled where either fflogs or act is reporting 1:40 fights, causing the logs to be distorted. It's impossible for RPRs to do 9.9k dps.
Let's look at the top damage stats

all the gauges and skills you described in practice are not that punishing, they mostly mean you decide when to spend and when you can just 1 2 3 and do a mechanic unless you are close to overcapping, which is not that hard to avoid.

Certainly it's not as punishing as dropping enochan especially on CD. But it certainly can be punishing if you miss a gibbet/gallow which is easily done if you reflex SoD with Soul Reaver up. Drifting Gluttony is a big concern, but not having enshroud available when Arcane circle comes off CD. You can't afford miss Soul Gauge more than once. There are still quiet a few ways to mess up your burst windows that will cause you to lose access to raid buff windows. RPRs' main dps gain is from these burst windows. While there are certainly safe areas in the "rotation" a single mistake can undo a lot of dps. Also, low skill floor doesn't mean a low skill celling. I don't believe you are saying that, but I feel nevertheless it needs to be said.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/XbA2B...aling&source=4
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/9r8R6...ing&source=783
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...=DPS&boss=1059

These are not accessible, says they are private.

[Scuoll]

These are not accessible, says they are private.

Weird, my bad, ill link some more :

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/14dmT...5&type=healing

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/HyqC9...3&type=healing

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/XbA2B...1&type=healing

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...=DPS&boss=1059

[Maverick_Haas]

Weird, my bad, ill link some more :

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/14dmT...5&type=healing

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/HyqC9...3&type=healing

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/XbA2B...1&type=healing

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...=DPS&boss=1059

Interesting, but I'd like to point out that although your fight specific logs show that the RPR indeed out heals the tanks, that it is not a true metric when compared to overall tanks vs overall RPR.

This shows tanks out healing RPRs by roughly 1k on average
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...anks&boss=1059

If you're going to point out that WARs are just broken right now, here are PLD also out healing RPRs.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...9&spec=Paladin

Granted, GNB and DRK average around 900~1k.

But if you compare RPR with other DPS, notably DNC, it certainly does look like Crest is overtuned. I suspect either DNC will get a buff or RPR will see a slight nerf, probably 100 -> 50 potency if I had to guess.

[ssunny2008]

snip

As Kolyskol said already. And even claims like "you´ve to know when to save your gauge" is just a bit damage optimization. Overall RPR is not hard to play, everything is highlighted when it´s up, you don´t even have to care about the swap between Gibbet & Gallows. All you´ve to take care for is 1 30s damage-buff, that´s it. Any other melee, even MNK, has to take care about more stuff, can easily missclicked or is locked in animations.
MNK is definately easy-mode now, but RPR is really braindead to play. Holding the big stuff on CD, playing 123 all day long and 45 / 46 when your gauge is full. You just have to check out the opener-pictures on balance and you know that this class is the easiest melee so far.

SMN vs RDM is a bit interesting because while yes SMN is perhaps way too easy to play.
Their utility is also not as strong as RDM, even ressing RDM blows SMN out of the water a SMN ressing now is even more of a hurt to their dps.

Imo I think SMN and RDM should basically be the same even tho SMN is easier to play, but I think that the utility of RDM evens it out a bit.

Based on this Reaper should be dealing just a slight higher dmg than SMN in my opinion based on its "difficulty to play" and its "added attributes to the team with its mobility".

You could even go more into detail:

- 8,1k DRG?!
- 8k SAM, BLM, (NIN?!)
- 7,9k NIN
- 7,8k MNK
- 7,7k RPR, RDM
- ((7,6k BRD, MCH???))
- 7,5k SMN, BRD, MCH, DNC

Don´t know about BRD and MCH imo. Maybe some RDPS main can say more about it. But in kind of complexity DNC and SMN should be definately the lowest. DNC relies too much on a better half and brings a good utility with it and is super easy to play overall. RDM might be superior in kind of "how fast can you rezz ppl", but SMN can rezz too, has a groupheal and it´s way easier to play. So i don´t know...

DRG might be something to look at seriously. The core rotation isn´t hard, but it has the most positionals yet, tons of oGCD´s, animation-locks and your whole rotation can be fck´d up pretty fast. Maybe it should be the number one? SAM has way more oppurtunities and freedom to play around different stuff, same with NIN and its rangetools.

(Keep in mind, groupbuffs are already taken into account. And of course some stuff might be a bit opinion-based, but i would always rate complexity / higher chance of missplays > utility.)

I wish I had it that easy on MNK with Chakras especially with the new Brotherhood which turned it into a nightmare.

Don´t know, you still have the feeling of clipping? I don´t have any issues and it´s pretty much the same as before in the burst-phase procc-wise, since you use less BS spam in PB. While it was like 2-4 luck-based forbidden chakras before, it´s like having constantly 3 now.