Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[HappyHubris]

and Venat actually share a common trait: they both cherish lives.

Venat literally slaughtered her entire world - the ancients, the other peoples, their creations...everything, because she met a cool guy. She traded her world for numerous ones where life had much less worth. On Source, civilizations are massacred in conquest, for profit (beast tribes/dragons), or for pleasure (Zenos and Gar Empire racists).

And that's not even bringing up how she was only interested in a tiny minority of the lives on Source (that little ark would barely fit a large town's worth of people in a handful of trips) and was more than willing to let the other shards die to the end days. Whereas if she worked with the ancients they could have saved incredible amounts of death, giving her an infinite lifetime to spread her views and develop a more empathetic faction.

The writers ignored Venat's characterization and decided that she would choose horrible suffering for all creation over memory wiping her, which was a poor decision.

[Mortime]

Venat literally slaughtered her entire world - the ancients, the other peoples, their creations...everything, because she met a cool guy. She traded her world for numerous ones where life had much less worth. On Source, civilizations are massacred in conquest, for profit (beast tribes/dragons), or for pleasure (Zenos and Gar Empire racists).

And that's not even bringing up how she was only interested in a tiny minority of the lives on Source (that little ark would barely fit a large town's worth of people in a handful of trips) and was more than willing to let the other shards die to the end days. Whereas if she worked with the ancients they could have saved incredible amounts of death, giving her an infinite lifetime to spread her views and develop a more empathetic faction.

The writers ignored Venat's characterization and decided that she would choose horrible suffering for all creation over memory wiping her, which was a poor decision.

And let's not forget that Venat's actions also led to Meteion singing her song of oblivion for 10000 years leading countless worlds to their destruction.

[HappyHubris]

And let's not forget that Venat's actions also led to Meteion singing her song of oblivion for 10000 years leading countless worlds to their destruction.

This is a good point, too.

Personally, my headcanon retcon is that Venat was mind-wiped, because anything else makes her the worst monster in the series.

[Syrri]

Personally, my headcanon retcon is that Venat was mind-wiped, because anything else makes her the worst monster in the series.

Were you not paying attention to the whole post Elpis cutscene? Venat admits she is a monster and nothing she did was just or righteous, it was necessary for Man to move forward and overcome despair. She doesn't consider herself a hero or good, she did what she thought was necessary and accepts the condemnation for it, one reason she didn't show her primal form was so she wouldn't be the embodiment of hydaelyn but that the crystal itself would.

Emet even comments on this after he's "revived" saying that Venat brought Man further then they could have; he says this after coming back from spending the past what 20k years living through the sundering and then regaining his memories from Elpis.

[Ranhansha]

And let's not forget that Venat's actions also led to Meteion singing her song of oblivion for 10000 years leading countless worlds to their destruction.

How so? That was already in motion? And why are the Ancients all of a sudden this hyper perfect society? They are creepy af. Hermes' story is exactly about that. Their empathy is lacking and they only care about their race and their purpose.
But I guess people who wanted Venat to be evil before EW and did't get that will just try to find a different means to justify it. Arguably, you could find it since Elpis doesn't make sense at all. Venat, a former and respected member of the Convocation in a society where dialogue was highly respected and fostered knows everything about the Apocalypse that is going to destroy the whole world and she does nothing. It's not that she's evil, it's absurd writing. She became dumb all of a sudden.

[Yencat]

And why are the Ancients all of a sudden this hyper perfect society? They are creepy af. Hermes' story is exactly about that. Their empathy is lacking and they only care about their race and their purpose.

We'll have to see how it plays out when the raid series is over, but so far the whole concept of Pandaemonium also makes me wonder if it wasn't a matter of time before they wrecked themselves. Did no one think this was a bad idea? A prison full of extremely dangerous creatures they themselves created seems like an accident waiting to happen.

Ties back (or forward, I guess?) nicely to Allag and their rather extreme experiments I suppose, but it does kind of feel like maybe they were already flying a bit too close to the sun.

[HappyHubris]

How so? That was already in motion? And why are the Ancients all of a sudden this hyper perfect society? They are creepy af. Hermes' story is exactly about that. Their empathy is lacking and they only care about their race and their purpose.

Are you "creepy AF" or lacking empathy for consuming factory-farmed animal meat? That causes way more suffering and fear than reversing a few magic test creatures. Would you be upset if someone let an incoming meter wipe us out due to our animal farming?

That's essentially what you're advocating for.

[Ranhansha]

Did you not see the screenshots i posted? How was their empathy lacking. They literally cherished the life of even soulless creations. Not sure where you get that they only care about their race when they literally sacrificed people to bring back some of the dead creatures and people that were originally dead.

No, I didn't. Did you play the game? They literally told you what I said through Hermes. They didn't give a damn about the lives that didn't stick to their standards and that's what make Hermes break. That's why he goes to such lengths to try to save their lives, that's why you have Emet teach the Sanuwa how to fly.

Are you "creepy AF" or lacking empathy for consuming factory-farmed animal meat? That causes way more suffering and fear than reversing a few magic test creatures. Would you be upset if someone let an incoming meter wipe us out due to our animal farming?

That's essentially what you're advocating for.

Yeah? I'm certainly lacking more empathy than other people. That doesn't mean I would take a life as if it were nothing or a joyous thing. At least we kill them to get something in return and not because we have a God complex. Anyways, the comparison makes no sense because they were supposed to be a thousand times better than "us" imperfect beings. They were on a whole different level. And in spite of that, we have proved to be a lot more empathetic than them, especially when things go south and that can be seen in the same EW MSQ and when we do the role quests, when we try to save all kinds of people irregardless of their situation.

And no, I'm not advocating for anything, I'm just saying they weren't perfect and I don't understand why everyone thinks a society of psychopaths with a God complex was perfect. You are essentially advocating for racism and classism.

[Vahlnir]

And let's not forget that Venat's actions also led to Meteion singing her song of oblivion for 10000 years leading countless worlds to their destruction.

Nah, that was started by Hermes when he created Meteion. The Final Days began with one man, basically, but the end result was an ancient civilization causing its own destruction. Because they couldn't be content with what they had (the good and the bad) and had to keep pushing their boundaries. And that is how most of, if not all of the stars Meteion's collective visited ended. Her character seemingly came out of nowhere, but she was still a product of the Ancients and their endless creativity. So it made sense story wise. I kinda figured they doomed themselves well before we met Meteion.

[Theodric]

Nah, that was started by Hermes when he created Meteion. The Final Days began with one man, basically, but the end result was an ancient civilization causing its own destruction. Because they couldn't be content with what they had (the good and the bad) and had to keep pushing their boundaries. And that is how most of, if not all of the stars Meteion's collective visited ended. Her character seemingly came out of nowhere, but she was still a product of the Ancients and their endless creativity. So it made sense story wise. I kinda figured they doomed themselves well before we met Meteion.

It was arguably Hermes and Venat who led the Ancients towards destruction rather than Ancients themselves.

The Sundered world would have been destroyed many times over if not for the aid provided by Unsundered beings, so one can only begin to imagine what would have been accomplished if the Ancients weren't dealing with deluded, subversive elements operating within their midst.