Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[AnotherPerson]

No, there are plenty logic to it. (I'll explain down below).



She may not know the "exact" future, but she had plenty "evident" for form her decision.


I think people are focusing on the wrong thing. The Final Day is simply ONE of the MANY ways a star can meet its end, the Endsinger is not really the final boss. In another word, they are not the point of the story. Think about it, by the time Venat sundered the world, the final day was already stopped. What she was trying to averse isn't the final day, but the ultimate end of mankind.

Elpis story was there wasn't merely for us to learn the nature of final day, but also to show us (the players) the fatal flaw of the Ancient society that would serve as the basic for Venat decision. Specifically, that flaw is the apathy toward life. While their indifference toward the creation is obvious, the subtext also showed it applies to all life.

Then, before her trial she told the party Meltion is a place where emotion and memory reign supreme, to which Alisae ask if mankind is truly powerless. She answered by address each of the Scion. On the surface, it looks like she merely recounting their lives, but once you put it together with the report by Metion and what she showed you in the final dungeon, Hydalyn was also drawing parallel of the struggle that spelled the end of those dead world, and how now the scion (as representative of mankind) had shown the will to overcome those.

Of course, there is nothing taken for granted. That's why the moon was created as a contingency. Even during the trial, she said we either show the will to overcome the trial or they must leave and never look back. She sacrified everything not for "assured" victory, but to make a bet on mankind's potential. Now, if you want to argue the merit of her decision, or whatever it's justifiable then that's up for debate. But I want to point out it's plenty logical, and definitely not simply based on her bias about our 1-side story.

That's actually great points I forgotten about. The ancients were a society focused towards perfection, but we also know all societies fixated on perfection eventually met its demise. To live is to suffer, but suffering is required to be continue existence. The Ancients didn't want suffering, but they were fine about returning to the star at the end when it reaches perfection. In that case, wouldn't their end be when they finished making the perfect world like the other civilizations that achieved what they wanted? They'd just go kill themselves after because they achieved their goal. Yeah, it actually makes sense why Venat did what she did now. She cherishes life, not just the dedication to making a better life.

[Lauront]

No, there are plenty logic to it. (I'll explain down below).

And the big problem is that regarding the Plenty, she had a summary of a couple of lines of what happened to that star. She had little reason at that point to attribute it to "apathy towards life" as such (which does not appear to have been the ancients' view tbh, nor were they lacking for emotions), but rather apathy towards it because joy became meaningless in the absence of sorrow. The problem people have here is how she is connecting this to her people outside of that singular cutscene - bearing in mind not all of us have suffered amnesia regarding the events of SHB and their recounting of events leading to her faction's summoning of Hydaelyn. It is possible that, one day, they too would meet that fate - it's possible they might not. The issue is that the scene in question shows her sundering the star at a point where her people are still mourning the loss they suffered, of the state of their beautiful star, to which they were devoted. And the problem people have with that is that they were not given the necessary information as to what she was basing her concerns on, as opposed to being provided rather glib platitudes when they express a desire to reclaim their former way of life. So her people were never really given a proper opportunity to consider it and make adjustments if necessary, once a proper understanding had been achieved. So for Ms "Nothing is impossible", apparently a conversation with her people about what Hermes had learnt via the Meteia was too difficult. There may be logic there that would make sense to her or Hermes with the knowledge they'd acquired, but not so much anyone else. Hermes's own mindset was to foster life even when it became inimical to the broader balance of the star. He is not exactly reasonable.

That's actually great points I forgotten about. The ancients were a society focused towards perfection, but we also know all societies fixated on perfection eventually met its demise. To live is to suffer, but suffering is required to be continue existence. The Ancients didn't want suffering, but they were fine about returning to the star at the end when it reaches perfection. In that case, wouldn't their end be when they finished making the perfect world like the other civilizations that achieved what they wanted? They'd just go kill themselves after because they achieved their goal. Yeah, it actually makes sense why Venat did what she did now. She cherishes life, not just the dedication to making a better life.

It goes beyond that even, because the dragons had attained something like a state of perfection and their star's destruction was not due to the incoherence of such a society but for no other reason than it was invaded by the Omicrons. Stars mired in suffering perished, those without it perished, those anywhere in between perished. So there's that. A fate that may befall the Source too, in any case, in the future, once the "lessons" the Scions supposedly learnt are gone. The poster here made a good list of all the issues with her thinking.

What she did makes sense to her, maybe. Not to anyone asking well why not give your people this knowledge to give them a chance to adapt, rather than just mouthing off some platitudes about suffering that in the moment, seem vacuous?

If you consider it reasonable to sunder your own people, based on a half-baked understanding of what happened to another star, which you never even tried to explain properly to your people, based on what was shown so far, then so be it... I certainly don't.

[KizuyaKatogami]

That's actually great points I forgotten about. The ancients were a society focused towards perfection, but we also know all societies fixated on perfection eventually met its demise. To live is to suffer, but suffering is required to be continue existence. The Ancients didn't want suffering, but they were fine about returning to the star at the end when it reaches perfection. In that case, wouldn't their end be when they finished making the perfect world like the other civilizations that achieved what they wanted? They'd just go kill themselves after because they achieved their goal. Yeah, it actually makes sense why Venat did what she did now. She cherishes life, not just the dedication to making a better life.

They weren’t really obsessed with perfection, they were fixated on making their world a better place. We’re told this both in game, shown it, and told via the short stories. They acknowledge their world isn’t perfect and this is further expanded upon in Pandaemonium. They were simply trying to make the best of what they had and live for the future which is literally the message they push time and time again in this game. This is even what the scions and the main cast strive for. It’s what numerous npc’s regard as well. Striving for the best in the future.

[Raven2014]

And the big problem is that regarding the Plenty, she had a summary of a couple of lines of what happened to that star.

And here is the problem with people taking cutsceen literally instead of abstractly. I remember going through Elpis in a matter of hours, whence the game implied it took days. Also, the Hydalyn vs Zodiak war is understood as a big civil war between 2 supreme entities ... do you think the sundering happens just like that, she talked to a few random ancient, and sunder them on the spot in her human form!?

The "characters" definitely would have a lot more detail form in all story elements that are abstracted into a few line to be delivered to the players, that's just how it is in a video game ... unless someone decide to write a book.

They weren’t really obsessed with perfection

not yet anyway, but it's clear they're on the road there, seeing how easily they willing to cast away "imperfection".

This is even what the scions and the main cast strive for. It’s what numerous npc’s regard as well. Striving for the best in the future.

The difference is ... the Scion pursuit the cause while weep for any life that is loss. The ancient putting the perfection of the start at the foremost and everything else (including life) is a distant second.

[Lauront]

And here is the problem with people taking cutsceen literally instead of abstractly. I remember going through Elpis in a matter of hours, whence the game implied it took days. Also, the Hydalyn vs Zodiak war is understood as a big civil war between 2 supreme entities ... do you think the sundering happens just like that, she talked to a few random ancient, and sunder them on the spot in her human form!?

The "characters" definitely would have a lot more detail form in all story elements that are abstracted into a few line to be delivered to the players, that's just how it is in a video game ... unless someone decide to write a book.

I myself took it abstractly. It doesn't resolve the problem or people's issues with what they were shown, and you then have to make assumptions that she did give her people a fair shot. Unless she related the basis for her concerns, rather than just speaking in terms of platitudes, I'd say she did not.

If the writers failed to make it clear, while employing so many convoluted plot mechanisms, that is on them. As it is, there was so much filler in the story, they more or less wrote a book anyway.

[Raven2014]

If the writers failed to make it clear, while employing so many convoluted plot mechanisms, that is on them. As it is, there was so much filler in the story, they more or less wrote a book anyway.

What you call a failure, I take it with the greatest sense of appreciation. For me good writing is not about spelling out the A, B, C of why something happens, but to provide enough pieces for the reader to come to the conclusion "oh I see, that's why it happens" WITHOUT being told straight out.

[Theodric]

Yeah, I have a hard time buying into the idea that the Ancients would have destroyed themselves when we know that Emet-Selch, Elidibus and Lahabrea worked tirelessly towards attempting to reverse the Sundering.

It stands to reason that if Venat had bothered to inform the Convocation of what was coming, they could have prepared themselves against the Final Days. Even if they did not believe her initially, the Final Days beginning to manifest would serve as a secondary warning and add further weight to her arguments.

As we also know, she was considered to be a respected figure within the Ancient world - so the idea that nobody would give her the time of day strikes me as odd. Let's also not forget that Emet-Selch stated that even if he thought the story brought to him by the Warrior of Light was 'nonsensical' he considered it to be his duty to investigate any threat to the Star's well being. As mentioned earlier on in the thread, he was also left aware of his memory having been altered after Hermes made use of the mind wipe device. Venat could have easily exploited that as a way to help convince him that something wasn't quite right. Especially since she was listening in when he expressed as much.

Much like Venat, Emet-Selch was also described as exceedingly well travelled. So the idea that her perspective is super unique strikes me as odd. Emet-Selch didn't help others for praise and adoration. We see similar behaviour from other Ancients in various side quests, where they help each other out in a selfless manner.

Furthermore, Venat grants the Warrior of Light the power to bring back the fallen which is supposedly one of the core reasons for her opposition to her own people. So seeking to restore one's loved ones actually isn't bad, then? Or is it meant to be another laughably hypocritical example of it being perfectly fine, but only when 'we' do it?

I think when a story and a character's motivations are left unexplained that it doesn't mean it's suddenly super deep and wonderful. If others wish to believe differently, they're free to - but to make Venat be seen as a benevolent figure exceptional and repeated leaps need to be made in a way that simply doesn't fit smoothly or at all as far as I am concerned.

Ultimately she's just someone who reacted hastily and condemned her own people because she refused to actually tell them what she knew...in a society that was established to solve problems through debate and research.

[KizuyaKatogami]

not yet anyway, but it's clear they're on the road there, seeing how easily they willing to cast away "imperfection".



The difference is ... the Scion pursuit the cause while weep for any life that is loss. The ancient putting the perfection of the start at the foremost and everything else (including life) is a distant second.

Could you give me some citations on this? Because i really dont see this at all.






These are just a few examples, but im pretty sure this shows they didnt just write things off, and they did weep/mourn for life. As far as the scions go, im fairly certain Estinien wasnt weeping or crying for all of the dragons he was slaughtering, and Graha/Ironworks were willing to sacrifice an entire timeline of people to die to bring back the WoL and avert a calamity. So i find it hard to believe the scions care for all life, especially with how many quests and references there are of us slaughtering animals left and right to the point its even stated in Diadem we're responsible for the nigh-on extinction of an animal species.

[Lauront]

What you call a failure, I take it with the greatest sense of appreciation. For me good writing is not about spelling out the A, B, C of why something happens, but to provide enough pieces for the reader to come to the conclusion "oh I see, that's why it happens" WITHOUT being told straight out.

This is the culmination of years of plots and planning. It's not that I or anyone else is asking them to spell out every little detail. It's that what details we already have line up poorly with what we're shown, so people are rightly asking questions and don't take her logic as sound on a "trust me bruh" basis. I don't think we're going to agree on this front.

[Quintessa]

Endwalker's story is a bit similar to Grandia II's' but with the situation reversed and no traversing of the past (Granas was killed by Valmar, who was then subsequently divided into different parts). Then it's similar to Grandia III with an "unknown villain"(Xorn) from an "unknown plane" (The verserealm) and one guy(Emelious) being a version of Zenos, etc.

It has a few more similarities.

It's not unique lol. What matters is how this similar story is delivered.