Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[lezard21]

The cutscene appears to be stylised in nature, but she is describing what occurred after the first stage of sacrifices to forestall the Final Days. There was a second set, that took place after, to revive the star. That is what that scene appears to be referring to, seeing as the skies are still aflame. Here is the established sequence of events. If I were to take it literally, it'd make an even greater mess of the story than it already is and imply outright retcons, on top of which it is utterly ludicrous to expect me to believe this change in sequence in events would not affect the future timeline at all... so I assume they're playing a game of fast-forward to slip her narrative justification for her mindset in. In either case, the timing appears to be before the second set.

I am not surprised that the ancients, still walking upon a star that had been eaten inside out, rejected the platitudes she's babbling about in that cutscene, while providing zero explanation for them.

It was a retcon. Hythlodaeus sacrified himself to summon Zodiark. We see him in that very cutscene parting ways with Emet to go sacrifice himself.

[Lauront]

If you're referring to Hyth in Amaurot, that was a shade Emet created. I might be missing something but that alone would not be inconsistent with him sacrificing himself. If they're meaning to present that whole scene as literal, then yes, it'd be a retcon of multiple sources of info, or at least it'd show her committing her betrayal way before... and at that point I just can't see how it is credible that it won't alter the future timeline.

[AnotherPerson]

The cutscene appears to be stylised in nature, but she is describing what occurred after the first stage of sacrifices to forestall the Final Days. There was a second set, that took place after, to revive the star. That is what that scene appears to be referring to, seeing as the skies are still aflame. Here is the established sequence of events. If I were to take it literally, it'd make an even greater mess of the story than it already is and imply outright retcons, on top of which it is utterly ludicrous to expect me to believe this change in sequence in events would not affect the future timeline at all... so I assume they're playing a game of fast-forward to slip her narrative justification for her mindset in. In either case, the timing appears to be before the second set.

I am not surprised that the ancients, still walking upon a star that had been eaten inside out, rejected the platitudes she's babbling about in that cutscene, while providing zero explanation for them.

You also have to remember Hythlodaeus in ShB was an incarnation that Emet created, with knowledge of what's going on. It's possible it's not a retcon and Emet simply bestowed Hythlodaeus knowledge of what comes to pass following his death.... though if she really did just up and sunder in one go, it's possible that it's a complete retcon.

But this also really strengthens the theory that Hyadelyn's laws over stability affected the timeline by converging the changed timeline with ours. A plot device for time travel for sure, but at this point, even the final boss manipulates time. Time travel is messy business when we aren't given the full specifics on how the story wants time travel to specifically work. @_@ It could always be handled worse though.

Perhaps in a branching timeline, moments after Venat and the WoL separated, Venat actually works to prevent the Final Days, and because that timeline diverges from ours. Perhaps, we don't see that happening because it's not pertaining to this one? Meanwhile the Venat in our timeline works to forestall the Final Days. Who knows. It's definitely a nightmare to storytell for sure.

[lezard21]

If you're referring to Hyth in Amaurot, that was a shade Emet created. I might be missing something but that alone would not be inconsistent with him sacrificing himself. If they're meaning to present that whole scene as literal, then yes, it'd be a retcon of multiple sources of info, or at least it'd show her committing her betrayal way before... and at that point I just can't see how it is credible that it won't alter the future timeline.

Hythlodaeus sacrifices himself to summon Zodiark. We know this from multiple sources including his shade on the Moon.

In the "Thou Must Live Die and Know" cutscene we see Venat walking through the streets of Amaurot as the Final Days are unraveling. She walks past Hythlodaeus and Emet saying their goodbyes. She keeps walking and comes across a group of Amaurotine tempered by Zodiark after the summoning and she proceeds to sunder the world. The conversation Venat has with her followers in Anamnesis is retconned out.

[Lauront]

You also have to remember Hythlodaeus in ShB was an incarnation that Emet created, with knowledge of what's going on. It's possible it's not a retcon and Emet simply bestowed Hythlodaeus knowledge of what comes to pass following his death.... though if she really did just up and sunder in one go, it's possible that it's a complete retcon.

Correct, so he is conveying information Emet-Selch had and which is further corroborated by Elidibus later on, after he's defeated, as well as by the short stories I referenced in that post. That is the point I am making - if this isn't simply a narrative trick, it's a change in the sequence of events, because it is never suggested that the sacrifices being interminable is the reason why her faction disagrees with the Convocation's plan; instead, the reason given is that they believed the new lives should inherit the star.

But this also really strengthens the theory that Hyadelyn's laws over stability affected the timeline by converging the changed timeline with ours. A plot device for time travel for sure, but at this point, even the final boss manipulates time. Time travel is messy business when we aren't given the full specifics on how the story wants time travel to specifically work. @_@ It could always be handled worse though.

That's one way of putting it... and why some might refer to it as an asspull and not a particularly well written one.

[HappyHubris]

It was the easy way out for the writers. Writing about a multiverse or an altered timeline would've made the plot quite a bit more complicated. The memory erasure and Venat's inaction were more for the convenience of the writers rather than good story telling.

The easy solution for this would be for Venat's memories to be erased, too. She still could have opposed Zodiark on principle and been drawn to the WoL as a primal without knowing why.

But for some reason she was written to doom her people because the WoL is just too darn cool.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The easy solution for this would be for Venat's memories to be erased, too. She still could have opposed Zodiark on principle and been drawn to the WoL as a primal without knowing why.

But for some reason she was written to doom her people because the WoL is just too darn cool.

The devs gotta stroke the players’ ego sadly. That typically comes at the cost of a coherent storyline xD

[Raven2014]

I doubt there's much logic to be attributed to Venat's actions. At the end of the day, she caused her entire race to be wiped out based on her own misguided, biased judgement and because she decided to fawn over an individual who gave her a very biased account of what happened in the future.

No, there are plenty logic to it. (I'll explain down below).

What do you mean known future for unknown?

She may not know the "exact" future, but she had plenty "evident" for form her decision.


I think people are focusing on the wrong thing. The Final Day is simply ONE of the MANY ways a star can meet its end, the Endsinger is not really the final boss. In another word, they are not the point of the story. Think about it, by the time Venat sundered the world, the final day was already stopped. What she was trying to averse isn't the final day, but the ultimate end of mankind.

Elpis story was there wasn't merely for us to learn the nature of final day, but also to show us (the players) the fatal flaw of the Ancient society that would serve as the basic for Venat decision. Specifically, that flaw is the apathy toward life. While their indifference toward the creation is obvious, the subtext also showed it applies to all life. Here are the key moment:

- Meltion asked you to demonstrate your "sorrow" to "cheer up" Herme (as ironic as it sounds) because he is like the only ancient possess that emotion (which came from his cherish of life).
- Emer-setch said while he understand the "rationality", he can not work out the emotion why you have to be sad when someone die. He also considered the fact Venat didn't end her life after leaving the office is an act in tune with her rebellious personality.
- When accompanied you, a research literally tell Venat "hi there lady Venat, I can not wait for the day you finally kill yourself and it will be beautiful!". Her reaction is clearly uncomfortable about it.


Herme and Venat actually share a common trait: they both cherish lives. But this strait is making them the outcast of their society. And the last straw is during the sundering scence, when given the choice between "suffer and live" or "die", we saw the ancient pick the latter without much thought. Basically, even if the ancient was spared the final day, their society in its current trajectory will arrive at a deadend anway, that's what Venat was trying to stop. That's the point of the story.


Then, before her trial she told the party Meltion is a place where emotion and memory reign supreme, to which Alisae ask if mankind is truly powerless. She answered by address each of the Scion. On the surface, it looks like she merely recounting their lives, but once you put it together with the report by Metion and what she showed you in the final dungeon, Hydalyn was also drawing parallel of the struggle that spelled the end of those dead world, and how now the scion (as representative of mankind) had shown the will to overcome those.


Of course, there is nothing taken for granted. That's why the moon was created as a contingency. Even during the trial, she said we either show the will to overcome the trial or they must leave and never look back. She sacrified everything not for "assured" victory, but to make a bet on mankind's potential. Now, if you want to argue the merit of her decision, or whatever it's justifiable then that's up for debate. But I want to point out it's plenty logical, and definitely not simply based on her bias about our 1-side story.

[Lauront]

Hythlodaeus sacrifices himself to summon Zodiark. We know this from multiple sources including his shade on the Moon.

In the "Thou Must Live Die and Know" cutscene we see Venat walking through the streets of Amaurot as the Final Days are unraveling. She walks past Hythlodaeus and Emet saying their goodbyes. She keeps walking and comes across a group of Amaurotine tempered by Zodiark after the summoning and she proceeds to sunder the world. The conversation Venat has with her followers in Anamnesis is retconned out.

I suppose. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that the scene is just stylised. If they're outright saying her, after gaining the knowledge in Elpis, substituted what happened in the original timeline, sure, it would be a retcon. The reason I brought up the original version of events is because it contradicts this idea that the ancients were just going to keep feeding Zodiark sacrifices. They seem to have had her perform the Sundering right before stage 2 of sacrifices took place. I don't think that scene paints her in a very reasonable light...

[Ryaz]

Hythlodaeus sacrifices himself to summon Zodiark. We know this from multiple sources including his shade on the Moon.

In the "Thou Must Live Die and Know" cutscene we see Venat walking through the streets of Amaurot as the Final Days are unraveling. She walks past Hythlodaeus and Emet saying their goodbyes. She keeps walking and comes across a group of Amaurotine tempered by Zodiark after the summoning and she proceeds to sunder the world. The conversation Venat has with her followers in Anamnesis is retconned out.

Or the conversation just isn't shown. For all we know, she may uave already had that conversation and decided to become Hydalaen's heart. The way time moved during the cutscene wasn't from point to point. They showed Hythlo going off to be summoned and then people praying to an already summoned Zodiark. It's very possible she and the rest of the Hydalaen supporting Ancients already prepped her to become Hydalaen'a heart during that scene.