Summoner Needs to be buffed

[MaelleRiou]

If physical ranged gets lower DPS because of mobility then so too should summoner.

[Nazrus]

If physical ranged gets lower DPS because of mobility then so too should summoner.

They get lower DPS because they have more utility which means higher rDPS.

[MaelleRiou]

They get lower DPS because they have more utility which means higher rDPS.

No, they have lower DPS because of mobility. MCH is a selfish DPS and generally has lower DPS than other DPS roles. It's pretty much never on par with black mage or samurai, the other 2 selfish DPS.

Summoner is also hardly lacking in utility.

[Kolsykol]

No, they have lower DPS because of mobility. MCH is a selfish DPS and generally has lower DPS than other DPS roles. It's pretty much never on par with black mage or samurai, the other 2 selfish DPS.

Summoner is also hardly lacking in utility.

It should be noted that their ability to combat ress was diminished because of the rework.
The party damage buff is nice and all but it doesn't really make up for their own low performance.

RDM can do everything SMN does and deal significantly more damage.
And it can also do the utility stuff better than SMN with less sacrifices.

As far as I understand Sharpcast is part of SMN's rotation and using it to ress is problematic for them.

[MaelleRiou]

It should be noted that their ability to combat ress was diminished because of the rework.
The party damage buff is nice and all but it doesn't really make up for their own low performance.

RDM can do everything SMN does and deal significantly more damage.
And it can also do the utility stuff better than SMN with less sacrifices.

As far as I understand Sharpcast is part of SMN's rotation and using it to ress is problematic for them.

Red mage has a bit more utility, but summoner has significantly more mobility.

[Wayfinder3]

It should be noted that their ability to combat ress was diminished because of the rework.
The party damage buff is nice and all but it doesn't really make up for their own low performance.

RDM can do everything SMN does and deal significantly more damage.
And it can also do the utility stuff better than SMN with less sacrifices.

As far as I understand Sharpcast is part of SMN's rotation and using it to ress is problematic for them.

Okay see again, this is kind of a nitpick but at the 95 and 99th percentile of both the new Normal mode and Both Ex trials , RDM only does like 200 more dps than SMN. I can definitely see justification for why SMN needs a dps buff however, RDM isn't doing signifigantly more dps than SMN. If you told me to buff SMN to 2-300 dps higher than rdm, then sure. Thats a pretty harmless change to the dynamic of both casters.

Because SMN gets about 2 or 3 Ruin 3s that are mandatory every primal rotation and ruin 3 is lower in potency than any of RDM spells, SMN has free spaces for raise where as RDM doesn't, RDM loses more for raising than SMN. Ruin 3 is worth a flat 310, VerA/T3 are worth 380. RDM raises easier though, that can't really be disputed, but the fact is that as long as SMN doesn't have to hardcast for that particular raise, i.e has swiftcast. SMN loses less for using the skill.

Also, while i do believe SMN should do some more damage, it's important to realize that RDM does have to enter melee range far more consistently than SMN. it gets like 3 melee combos a min. SMN just has one gcd that gap closes them and they can shift it around raid buffs and fight design far more easier than RDM can. True rdm can pool resources much better now, but they still have aspects of their rotation that require much more risky play. for example, if a raid buff like trick attack is on the boss, you want to get resolution in it which means holding the melee combo now becomes a liability. SMN can just ruby rite before Crimson cycle or vice versa which means they're don't risk nearly as much as RDM to just play the job optimally. So is it fair for a job that has the mobility of a ranged and comparable utility and damage as RDM but less risk to do more damage?

Im not presenting that question in attempt to justify why its okay for RDM to do the damage that it does, im simply stating that it's possible SE considered more aspects of SMN's design. RDM still has the worst mobility of all 3 casters, they have more instant options with acceleration but that skill is directly tied to your incentive to do damage, where as a BLM that doesn't need to move or weave doesn't really need to use triple cast on CD, or a SMN doesn't have to use their swiftcast on CD. RDM does indeed need to use their acceleration and swiftcast for damage and this is all in addition to the fact that SMN and RDM are very close to each other at the 95 and 99 percentile in all of the current content people are choosing to optimize in.

There is alot of misinformation in these complaints and some players are kinda overplaying the disparity between them. let it be known that RDM is only about 100-200 dps above bard which has the highest rdps of all the Physical ranged. If anything, i'd argue that the lower end jobs RDM, BRD, MCH, DNC, SMN, NIN, and DRG are all pretty decently competitive. MNK RPR are overpowered and BLM and SAM are probably fine but are outclassed by the top 2. So a buff to all the lower end jobs while keeping the structure they currently have might not be the worst thing

But lets stop exaggerating this as an imbalance of the greatest proportions. RDM and SMN both have all the same tools, verraise is nice, but it's actually utility is a bit more niche when you consider the fact that SMN can indeed swiftcast raise. this isn't to say the skill isn't busted, but SMN and RDM are alot closer in what they offer and how more they contribute.

The only issue with SMN and RDM is that RDM has the better versions of the utility they both have and is doing slightly more. So the solution is as simple as to give SMN the dps edge by like 200dps.

[IllyaPrisma]

They get lower DPS because they have more utility which means higher rDPS.

SMN has a raid buff, a self shield, a targeted heal from Phoenix, an AoE regen from Phoenix, they can Rez, they have Addle AND 95% of their rotation is instant cast.

[Kolsykol]

SMN has a raid buff, a self shield, a targeted heal from Phoenix, an AoE regen from Phoenix, they can Rez, they have Addle AND 95% of their rotation is instant cast.

The heals are honestly kinda meh since they're tied to Phoenix, I mean are you going to hold Phoenix until healing is '' needed ''?
It's not like the Reaper shield that can just be used on demand.

I dunno if we should count a self shield either.

[Anvaire]

I dunno if we should count a self shield either.

Not unless we start classing Blm's Manawall as well as they operate the same way.

[ForteNightshade]

I have bad news for you they will never buff SMN enough to surpass RDM, rdm rotation is harder so higher dps is warranted.

If we're going to use this logic then Reaper should be the weakest melee. Not only does it boast the best utility among melee in Arcane Crest, it's incredibly easy to pick up and play even at a fairly decent level. Additionally, it has no odd optimization quirks like Samurai or suffer from animation lock like Dragoon.

And yet it's not only the best Melee but the best overall DPS job in the entire game. So the difficult logic simply doesn't work.

If physical ranged gets lower DPS because of mobility then so too should summoner.

Except the Range aren't competing against anyone else but themselves. You'll always take one of them whereas Summoner's DPS is so low, it's essentially worthless. There's simply zero reason for any group to even consider Summoner come Savage. Red Mage simply beats it at every category while Black Mage is better for speeds. Summoner has no niche or even reason to exist at its current level.