Summoner Needs to be buffed

[MaelleRiou]

They get lower DPS because they have more utility which means higher rDPS.

No, they have lower DPS because of mobility. MCH is a selfish DPS and generally has lower DPS than other DPS roles. It's pretty much never on par with black mage or samurai, the other 2 selfish DPS.

Summoner is also hardly lacking in utility.

[jadeblade]

Everyone saying simplicity warrants low dps... okay, so what about Reaper? I highly doubt its rocket science and puts out more dps then dps that actually needs to think before deciding to use aoe or single target.

I have good hunch that a nerf is coming Reaper way on the savage patch. All these Reaper bandwagon will be disappointed pretty soon.

[ThorneDynasty]

Everyone saying simplicity warrants low dps... okay, so what about Reaper? I highly doubt its rocket science and puts out more dps then dps that actually needs to think before deciding to use aoe or single target.

I think everyone is expecting a nerf for Reaper pretty soon. You are sure to see people going off about it if it won't be in the next patch.

[Wayfinder3]

I have been playing Red Mage and Summoner back to back using various ways to determine damage output and Summoner is pulling waaaaaay below Red Mage which offers far more raid utility. Summoner clearly needs to a buff or it will have no place in savage raiding, please make some potency adjustments.

To nitpick a bit. RDM doesn't offer far more utility than SMN, they actually have access to the same exact tools with the exception of magick barrier and Pheonix Regen. Now to be fair, RDM utility is better utilized than SMN and the primary utility we're all dancing around being verraise dualcast is definitely strong enough that SMN should be buffed to be at least 300 to 400 dps higher than where it is. However, we've seen before that verraise isn't strong enough to carry RDM against SMN from patch 4.1 if the DPS dispairty between them is too big. Eden's Promise had SMN about 500 rdps higher than RDM at the 99th percentile and both jobs felt considerably effective in that environment.

So lets aim for that specifically as opposed to asking for buffs to SMN that just leave RDM in the dust. As a main since stormblood, it's been a pretty rough relationship between them that took them until mid shadowbringers to really fix and this doesn't even factor BLM blowing both of them out of the water by a ridiculous margin at the start of shadowbringers. That said, I agree with SMN needing buffs, just don't look at RDM like it's dominating SMN at the moment when both of them are alot closer in utility than most really want to agree

[Kolsykol]

No, they have lower DPS because of mobility. MCH is a selfish DPS and generally has lower DPS than other DPS roles. It's pretty much never on par with black mage or samurai, the other 2 selfish DPS.

Summoner is also hardly lacking in utility.

It should be noted that their ability to combat ress was diminished because of the rework.
The party damage buff is nice and all but it doesn't really make up for their own low performance.

RDM can do everything SMN does and deal significantly more damage.
And it can also do the utility stuff better than SMN with less sacrifices.

As far as I understand Sharpcast is part of SMN's rotation and using it to ress is problematic for them.

[MaelleRiou]

It should be noted that their ability to combat ress was diminished because of the rework.
The party damage buff is nice and all but it doesn't really make up for their own low performance.

RDM can do everything SMN does and deal significantly more damage.
And it can also do the utility stuff better than SMN with less sacrifices.

As far as I understand Sharpcast is part of SMN's rotation and using it to ress is problematic for them.

Red mage has a bit more utility, but summoner has significantly more mobility.

[Wayfinder3]

It should be noted that their ability to combat ress was diminished because of the rework.
The party damage buff is nice and all but it doesn't really make up for their own low performance.

RDM can do everything SMN does and deal significantly more damage.
And it can also do the utility stuff better than SMN with less sacrifices.

As far as I understand Sharpcast is part of SMN's rotation and using it to ress is problematic for them.

Okay see again, this is kind of a nitpick but at the 95 and 99th percentile of both the new Normal mode and Both Ex trials , RDM only does like 200 more dps than SMN. I can definitely see justification for why SMN needs a dps buff however, RDM isn't doing signifigantly more dps than SMN. If you told me to buff SMN to 2-300 dps higher than rdm, then sure. Thats a pretty harmless change to the dynamic of both casters.

Because SMN gets about 2 or 3 Ruin 3s that are mandatory every primal rotation and ruin 3 is lower in potency than any of RDM spells, SMN has free spaces for raise where as RDM doesn't, RDM loses more for raising than SMN. Ruin 3 is worth a flat 310, VerA/T3 are worth 380. RDM raises easier though, that can't really be disputed, but the fact is that as long as SMN doesn't have to hardcast for that particular raise, i.e has swiftcast. SMN loses less for using the skill.

Also, while i do believe SMN should do some more damage, it's important to realize that RDM does have to enter melee range far more consistently than SMN. it gets like 3 melee combos a min. SMN just has one gcd that gap closes them and they can shift it around raid buffs and fight design far more easier than RDM can. True rdm can pool resources much better now, but they still have aspects of their rotation that require much more risky play. for example, if a raid buff like trick attack is on the boss, you want to get resolution in it which means holding the melee combo now becomes a liability. SMN can just ruby rite before Crimson cycle or vice versa which means they're don't risk nearly as much as RDM to just play the job optimally. So is it fair for a job that has the mobility of a ranged and comparable utility and damage as RDM but less risk to do more damage?

Im not presenting that question in attempt to justify why its okay for RDM to do the damage that it does, im simply stating that it's possible SE considered more aspects of SMN's design. RDM still has the worst mobility of all 3 casters, they have more instant options with acceleration but that skill is directly tied to your incentive to do damage, where as a BLM that doesn't need to move or weave doesn't really need to use triple cast on CD, or a SMN doesn't have to use their swiftcast on CD. RDM does indeed need to use their acceleration and swiftcast for damage and this is all in addition to the fact that SMN and RDM are very close to each other at the 95 and 99 percentile in all of the current content people are choosing to optimize in.

There is alot of misinformation in these complaints and some players are kinda overplaying the disparity between them. let it be known that RDM is only about 100-200 dps above bard which has the highest rdps of all the Physical ranged. If anything, i'd argue that the lower end jobs RDM, BRD, MCH, DNC, SMN, NIN, and DRG are all pretty decently competitive. MNK RPR are overpowered and BLM and SAM are probably fine but are outclassed by the top 2. So a buff to all the lower end jobs while keeping the structure they currently have might not be the worst thing

But lets stop exaggerating this as an imbalance of the greatest proportions. RDM and SMN both have all the same tools, verraise is nice, but it's actually utility is a bit more niche when you consider the fact that SMN can indeed swiftcast raise. this isn't to say the skill isn't busted, but SMN and RDM are alot closer in what they offer and how more they contribute.

The only issue with SMN and RDM is that RDM has the better versions of the utility they both have and is doing slightly more. So the solution is as simple as to give SMN the dps edge by like 200dps.

[rewd]

Ironically enough, new SMN is more limited as far as movement is concerned because old SMN could have 100% uptime thanks to Ruin II. While new SMN has more instacasts, a bad timing on Ifrit phase can and will hurt your uptime because you simply don't have a safety net enough. This is already enough to distance SMN from phys ranged, who simply won't miss a GCD or interrupt anything.

It's also disingenous to think that SMN has so much mobility while the other casters don't. BLM and RDM were already very mobile in ShB and they got even more mobile in EW. Not to mention how tanks and melee have mobility tools and ranged attacks that don't break combos anymore.

It's mostly about how easily accessible said mobility is. A good example would be Reaper's free dash and backstep VS Samurai's that cost kenki.

[Killerwing]

As someone that played Summoner since HW, I agree with rewd and I would also like to mention a few other things.

Mainly that mobility has never been the main factor that affects the measurement of a job's personal DPS, but rather party utility.

Best example can be seen with Machinist, Bard and Dancer. Machinist has (generally, though I'm uncertain if it's true at the moment) the highest personal DPS of the three but not much party utility while Dancer has the lowest personal DPS, but a large amount of party utility.

It's the same deal with all types of DPS. Furthermore the simplicity of a job's rotation doesn't necessarily mean a job will do tons of damage. Look again at Dancer for that(which has a really basic DPS rotation). And conversely you have DPS like Ninja that are kinda complex, yet aren't among the highest in personal DPS.

If you want to compare personal DPS among the casters, it would mainly be between Red Mage and Summoner because Black Mage has no party utility(and it has huge personal DPS in return).
In case you were wondering, here's what the two casters have for utilities.

Red Mage's utility kit
- Vercure: Reliable healing spell that can be used in a pinch.
- Verraise: Battle rez which can be used very quickly thanks to Dualcast(though at major cost to RDM's MP and DPS)
- Embolden: Party-wide damage buff
- Magick Barrier: Party-wide damage resist+heal buff

Summoner's utility kit
- Resurrection: Battle rez
- Searing Light: Party-wide damage buff
- Everlasting Flight: Small party-wide HoT which can only be used every 2 minutes
- Rekindle: Single target heal which can only be used every 2 minutes

As you can see, Red Mages have 4 reliable utility spells that can be used whenever it's possible, or necessary to use them.
Summoner on the other hand only has 2 reliable utility spells. Yes, Demi-Phoenix does give them access to a HoT and a single-target healing spell...but you can only use Demi-Phoenix every 2 minutes in your rotation. It makes those spells highly unreliable for constant utility. Not to mention that if you die as SMN in a fight, you lose any progress you had on Demi-Phoenix, meaning the time to use those heals is delayed by 2 minutes, unlike RDM's Embolden and Magick Barrier.

I'm not counting the shield because it's a self-sustain/survivability tool rather than party utility.

There's one upside to this whole issue about SMN having perhaps not enough DPS right now. And it's the fact that their kit is good and stable right now, meaning that all Square-Enix will probably do is a simple increase in potencies on certain spells.

A really simple fix...unlike the whole issues SMN had back during the release of both Stormblood and Shadowbringers...
(You know there's a problem when a world first raider changed from SMN to BLM because it was painful on their hands.)

[MaelleRiou]

Mainly that mobility has never been the main factor that affects the measurement of a job's personal DPS, but rather party utility.

Yes, it does. That's why machinist is always behind samurai and black mage, the other 2 selfish DPS jobs. If mobility isn't the factor then what is?