Request for Utsusemi

[Stanislaw]

I'll bite.

I've read through the entire thread (albeit relatively quickly), but I haven't seen one post or reasoning why the OP wants Utsusemi for BRD. Care to explain why? Because until then, this argument:

The counter argument to giving BARD Utsusemi (or any single job for that matter):

Because then you'd see a party of nothing but 8 Bards bouncing hate and taking 0 damage while whittling down the NM.

Is pretty much why Utsusemi is not a very good idea, even if it's restricted to BRD only.

[Xoo]

I'll bite.

I've read through the entire thread (albeit relatively quickly), but I haven't seen one post or reasoning why the OP wants Utsusemi for BRD. Care to explain why? Because until then, this argument:



Is pretty much why Utsusemi is not a very good idea, even if it's restricted to BRD only.

OH MY GOD DO YOU MEAN IT??! An actual response?

Bard is meant as a support job, yes? Bard has a bow, yes? Bard will have Swiftsong yes? Can bard not be an actual puller for the group, instead of one person mounting a chocobo, getting too far away from the party and only drawing the aggro of 1 or 2 mobs? I hope/suspect that BRD songs will have a good AoE and range on them, where it can stand at enough distance to continually feed the group mobs to kill.

Take for instance:

(Enemy Group)<-------------->(Bard)<-------------->(Party)

The mobs are too far out of range for 1 melee member to successfully link a group, but the Bard stands between them, has shadows, can sleep them, buff the party, do some damage and still stay alive without the guarantee of cures and stoneskin.

EDIT: Please, as a reward Stanislaw, you are free to laugh at me all you like and still get honest smiles. /bow

[Xianghua]

OH MY GOD DO YOU MEAN IT??! An actual response?

Bard is meant as a support job, yes? Bard has a bow, yes? Bard will have Swiftsong yes? Can bard not be an actual puller for the group, instead of one person mounting a chocobo, getting too far away from the party and only drawing the aggro of 1 or 2 mobs? I hope/suspect that BRD songs will have a good AoE and range on them, where it can stand at enough distance to continually feed the group mobs to kill.

Take for instance:

(Enemy Group)<-------------->(Bard)<-------------->(Party)

The mobs are too far out of range for 1 melee member to successfully link a group, but the Bard stands between them, has shadows, can sleep them, buff the party, do some damage and still stay alive without the guarantee of cures and stoneskin.

EDIT: Please, as a reward Stanislaw, you are free to laugh at me all you like and still get honest smiles. /bow

You don't Need Utsu to pull mobs that deaggro 5 feet from their spawn point. Like most other things in XI. People think its needed in this game just because it was in XI. Right now XIV has no use for utsu and I doubt it ever will.

[Stanislaw]

OH MY GOD DO YOU MEAN IT??! An actual response?

Bard is meant as a support job, yes? Bard has a bow, yes? Bard will have Swiftsong yes? Can bard not be an actual puller for the group, instead of one person mounting a chocobo, getting too far away from the party and only drawing the aggro of 1 or 2 mobs? I hope/suspect that BRD songs will have a good AoE and range on them, where it can stand at enough distance to continually feed the group mobs to kill.

Take for instance:

(Enemy Group)<-------------->(Bard)<-------------->(Party)

The mobs are too far out of range for 1 melee member to successfully link a group, but the Bard stands between them, has shadows, can sleep them, buff the party, do some damage and still stay alive without the guarantee of cures and stoneskin.

EDIT: Please, as a reward Stanislaw, you are free to laugh at me all you like and still get honest smiles. /bow

Couple of things.

While your argument for giving Utsusemi to BRD might sound like good reasoning, it seems to me that you're confused in thinking that a BRD's role in FFXIV will be the same as FFXI. As a BRD player in FFXI myself, whenever I was invited to merit parties I've always subbed NIN because I loved my role as a puller, and as a puller it was pretty much necessary to sub NIN lest you get pounded to death (although I will say it was still possible with a WHM sub, just harder). Was one of my most fun experiences in FFXI.

However, whereas FFXI's style of exping was more about 'setting up camp and pulling mobs to party', FFXIV's style is more 'roaming'. Therefore, BRD doesn't have to the puller. If anything, it would be more logical for the designated tank to pull mobs (attack first), especially because of how links work in FFXIV and how mobs are 'leashed' in their respective areas.

But other melees don't have ranged attack? Actually, there's quite a bit of options when it comes to ranged weapons, even for melee, because of the existence of things like Exorcism Beans which are easy to make/dirt cheap and can stack to 99. This allows all jobs to pull mobs from range if necessary.

Also, trying to use Swiftsong as a reason for a BRD to pull isn't that great either because you actually have to stop and cast Swiftsong first (especially now that movement cancels magic), then go pull the mob. And the moment you attack it, it wears off, so it's not really that great for pulling.

In conclusion, if giving BRD Utsusemi for the sake of pulling is your only reason to give it the ability, I think it's a poor reason, especially given the demerits everyone else in this thread has pointed out.

[Xoo]

Couple of things.

While your argument for giving Utsusemi to BRD might sound like good reasoning, it seems to me that you're confused in thinking that a BRD's role in FFXIV will be the same as FFXI. As a BRD player in FFXI myself, whenever I was invited to merit parties I've always subbed NIN because I loved my role as a puller, and as a puller it was pretty much necessary to sub NIN lest you get pounded to death (although I will say it was still possible with a WHM sub, just harder). Was one of my most fun experiences in FFXI.

However, whereas FFXI's style of exping was more about 'setting up camp and pulling mobs to party', FFXIV's style is more 'roaming'. Therefore, BRD doesn't have to the puller. If anything, it would be more logical for the designated tank to pull mobs (attack first), especially because of how links work in FFXIV and how mobs are 'leashed' in their respective areas.

But other melees don't have ranged attack? Actually, there's quite a bit of options when it comes to ranged weapons, even for melee, because of the existence of things like Exorcism Beans which are easy to make/dirt cheap and can stack to 99. This allows all jobs to pull mobs from range if necessary.

Also, trying to use Swiftsong as a reason for a BRD to pull isn't that great either because you actually have to stop and cast Swiftsong first (especially now that movement cancels magic), then go pull the mob. And the moment you attack it, it wears off, so it's not really that great for pulling.

In conclusion, if giving BRD Utsusemi for the sake of pulling is your only reason to give it the ability, I think it's a poor reason, especially given the demerits everyone else in this thread has pointed out.

I think this game is moving more toward the static camp as before. Here's why: Mages regain MP at a much faster rate when standing still; Movement will cancel casting; If you are in a Stronghold party without 50's to carry you, there is little need to roam as the respawn rate is so short; Mob concentration is very dense in many places; Many of the AoE Weaponskills are gone.

Exorcism Beans, Chakrams, Throwing Daggers.. all of those have a significantly less range to them compared to that of Archer and what I will assume will carry over into the Bowharp's range. Regarding Swiftsong, I imagine the sequence of pulling might go something like this: Utsusemi/Swiftsong > Buff group > Pull 4-5 mobs > Sleep > PLD Flash the group > PLD /ra 1 mob for the group > Group Defeats the mob > PLD pulls next /ra (Until group reduced to last) > Repeat.

As far as leashing, there are many spots where a group can stand and still pull from 2 or more immediate areas without having the mobs return. Just as in XI, there were key spots to camp in a group of target mobs - same here.

Thank you for not defaulting me as a troll and giving honest feedback to my suggestion.

EDIT: The only demerits anyone gave anything in this entire thread was to FFXI, Ninja and how Utsusemi was implemented and sometimes abused in that game. Trust me, not one person gave a single shred of commentary as to why it would or would not work in this game as I have suggested.

[Xianghua]

I think this game is moving more toward the static camp as before. Here's why: Mages regain MP at a much faster rate when standing still; Movement will cancel casting; If you are in a Stronghold party without 50's to carry you, there is little need to roam as the respawn rate is so short; Mob concentration is very dense in many places; Many of the AoE Weaponskills are gone.

Exorcism Beans, Chakrams, Throwing Daggers.. all of those have a significantly less range to them compared to that of Archer and what I will assume will carry over into the Bowharp's range. Regarding Swiftsong, I imagine the sequence of pulling might go something like this: Utsusemi/Swiftsong > Buff group > Pull 4-5 mobs > Sleep > PLD Flash the group > PLD /ra 1 mob for the group > Group Defeats the mob > PLD pulls next /ra (Until group reduced to last) > Repeat.

As far as leashing, there are many spots where a group can stand and still pull from 2 or more immediate areas without having the mobs return. Just as in XI, there were key spots to camp in a group of target mobs - same here.

Thank you for not defaulting me as a troll and giving honest feedback to my suggestion.

You need to remember that right now XIV Exp revolves around AoE. Pulling mobs sleeping them is kinda pointless when you can just kill them all in less then a min. Any job can pull and you don't need shadows to do it. It will most likely still be better for tank to get on choco and aggro/run to camp. Pulling is really only needed in a game where you can only handle 1/2 mobs. Not in a game where you can handle an entire camp with ease.

[Xoo]

You need to remember that right now XIV Exp revolves around AoE. Pulling mobs sleeping them is kinda pointless when you can just kill them all in less then a min. Any job can pull and you don't need shadows to do it. It will most likely still be better for tank to get on choco and aggro/run to camp. Pulling is really only needed in a game where you can only handle 1/2 mobs. Not in a game where you can handle an entire camp with ease.

First paragraph, last sentence. What do you get now when you have a slew of mobs to kill? - Every melee fighting his own mob and fights taking too long because they haven't realized that AoE Weaponskills don't play a key role in battle anymore; At least not through the grind levels.

[Xianghua]

First paragraph, last sentence. What do you get now when you have a slew of mobs to kill? - Every melee fighting his own mob and fights taking too long because they haven't realized that AoE Weaponskills don't play a key role in battle anymore. At least not through the grind levels anymore.

How are you going to sleep them? With that black mage spell that is most likely level 50? Why do you need shadows when you can get to and from mobs to camp on choco without even losing stoneskin? Utsu will do nothing that can't already be done in game.

[Stanislaw]

I think this game is moving more toward the static camp as before. Here's why: Mages regain MP at a much faster rate when standing still; Movement will cancel casting; If you are in a Stronghold party without 50's to carry you, there is little need to roam as the respawn rate is so short; Mob concentration is very dense in many places; Many of the AoE Weaponskills are gone.

Exorcism Beans, Chakrams, Throwing Daggers.. all of those have a significantly less range to them compared to that of Archer and what I will assume will carry over into the Bowharp's range. Regarding Swiftsong, I imagine the sequence of pulling might go something like this: Utsusemi/Swiftsong > Buff group > Pull 4-5 mobs > Sleep > PLD Flash the group > PLD /ra 1 mob for the group > Group Defeats the mob > PLD pulls next /ra (Until group reduced to last) > Repeat.

As far as leashing, there are many spots where a group can stand and still pull from 2 or more immediate areas without having the mobs return. Just as in XI, there were key spots to camp in a group of target mobs - same here.

Thank you for not defaulting me as a troll and giving honest feedback to my suggestion.

EDIT: The only demerits anyone gave anything in this entire thread was to FFXI, Ninja and how Utsusemi was implemented and sometimes abused in that game. Trust me, not one person gave a single shred of commentary as to why it would or would not work in this game as I have suggested.

You make good points about static vs roaming so I don't have any arguments there, but I will say there is the possibility that mindset might change with the implementation of jobs. We'll see.

However, I will like to point out that you said that it's important for mages to remain static because they heal MP faster. What you need to remember is that FFXIV BRD songs are actually spells that consume MP (if Swiftsong is any indication) as opposed to no-cost FFXI songs. Then there's the cross-class abilities that BRD can equip from CNJ and THM, and a lot of them consume MP too. This gives a reason for BRDs to remain static. I suppose you can argue that you can ignore the MP costs through the use of the MP regen you receive from the MP regen spell, but then the same argument could be used against other mages. No reason they can't roam, too.

Ranged weapons having less range than a normal Bow shot isn't that much an issue when pulling mobs because, unlike FFXI, mobs no longer hit you as long as you've put at least some distance between them. Mobs hitting me even though it look liked I put good distance in-between always annoyed me in FFXI.

Another thing that made Utsusemi necessary in FFXI BRD pulling was that mobs you've exp'd off of hit like a truck and the BRD would die in 3~4 hits. This isn't the case anymore in FFXIV. Yes, Utsusemi will probably still better, but Stoneskin will do just fine, and therefore, Utsusemi doesn't hold as much importance in pulling in FFXIV compared to FFXI.

Also, when I said demerits that other people mentioned, it's mostly to point out people who gave examples in how Utsusemi could be exploited. Yes, it wasn't abused all the time, but there is a precedent, and because it exists, there is no reason to believe that the same thing is not going to happen here too. Given the potential problems it can cause, the general consensus thus becomes 'don't bother'.

I will also say that people pulling mobs via riding a chocobo is silly. Make them stop and make them pull normally. If the mob is so far away that it requires a chocobo, move your camp closer.

[Xoo]

You make good points about static vs roaming so I don't have any arguments there, but I will say there is the possibility that mindset might change with the implementation of jobs. We'll see.

However, I will like to point out that you said that it's important for mages to remain static because they heal MP faster. What you need to remember is that because BRD songs are actually spells that consume MP (if Swiftsong is any indication) as opposed to no-cost FFXI songs. It gives a reason for BRDs to remain static. I suppose you can argue that you can ignore the MP costs through the use of the MP regen you receive from the MP regen spell, but then the same argument could be used against other mages. No reason they can't roam, too.

Ranged weapons having less range than a normal Bow shot isn't that much an issue when pulling mobs because, unlike FFXI, mobs no longer hit you as long as you've put at least some distance between them. Mobs hitting me even though it look liked I put good distance in-between always annoyed me in FFXI.

Another thing that made Utsusemi necessary in FFXI BRD pulling was that mobs you've exp'd off of hit like a truck and the BRD would die in 3~4 hits. This isn't the case anymore in FFXIV. Yes, Utsusemi will probably still better, but Stoneskin will do just fine, and therefore, Utsusemi doesn't hold as much importance in pulling in FFXIV compared to FFXI, and even less of a reason to give it to BRD.

Also, when I said demerits that other people mentioned, it's mostly to point out people who gave examples in how Utsusemi could be exploited. Yes, it wasn't abused all the time, but there is a precedent, and because it exists, there is no reason to believe that the same thing is not going to happen here too.

I will also say that people pulling mobs via riding a chocobo is silly. Make them stop and make them pull normally.

Bard will not have to move for a good time whilst the first 3 mobs are being killed. I assume this will be plenty of time to regain MP. The only reason I say that long range is necessary is due to the fact of 1 member's distand seperation from the group means no links when pulling. The rudamentary mockup I gave earlier displays the necessity for a longer ranged attack.

If a BRD is of appropriate level to be pulling from a worthwhile group of EXP mobs, then absolutely death is a threat. Having 4-5 Lv50 Ixali on your little Lv40 frame is going to hurt quickly.

I'm sure that Utsusemi for Bard will give it some advantages for survival, but does Second Wind favored to PGL make it invincible? Does Life Surge mean a Lancer can never die? A bit thin for examples, but I hope you can follow what I'm trying to say.