Request for Utsusemi

[Stanislaw]

I think this game is moving more toward the static camp as before. Here's why: Mages regain MP at a much faster rate when standing still; Movement will cancel casting; If you are in a Stronghold party without 50's to carry you, there is little need to roam as the respawn rate is so short; Mob concentration is very dense in many places; Many of the AoE Weaponskills are gone.

Exorcism Beans, Chakrams, Throwing Daggers.. all of those have a significantly less range to them compared to that of Archer and what I will assume will carry over into the Bowharp's range. Regarding Swiftsong, I imagine the sequence of pulling might go something like this: Utsusemi/Swiftsong > Buff group > Pull 4-5 mobs > Sleep > PLD Flash the group > PLD /ra 1 mob for the group > Group Defeats the mob > PLD pulls next /ra (Until group reduced to last) > Repeat.

As far as leashing, there are many spots where a group can stand and still pull from 2 or more immediate areas without having the mobs return. Just as in XI, there were key spots to camp in a group of target mobs - same here.

Thank you for not defaulting me as a troll and giving honest feedback to my suggestion.

EDIT: The only demerits anyone gave anything in this entire thread was to FFXI, Ninja and how Utsusemi was implemented and sometimes abused in that game. Trust me, not one person gave a single shred of commentary as to why it would or would not work in this game as I have suggested.

You make good points about static vs roaming so I don't have any arguments there, but I will say there is the possibility that mindset might change with the implementation of jobs. We'll see.

However, I will like to point out that you said that it's important for mages to remain static because they heal MP faster. What you need to remember is that FFXIV BRD songs are actually spells that consume MP (if Swiftsong is any indication) as opposed to no-cost FFXI songs. Then there's the cross-class abilities that BRD can equip from CNJ and THM, and a lot of them consume MP too. This gives a reason for BRDs to remain static. I suppose you can argue that you can ignore the MP costs through the use of the MP regen you receive from the MP regen spell, but then the same argument could be used against other mages. No reason they can't roam, too.

Ranged weapons having less range than a normal Bow shot isn't that much an issue when pulling mobs because, unlike FFXI, mobs no longer hit you as long as you've put at least some distance between them. Mobs hitting me even though it look liked I put good distance in-between always annoyed me in FFXI.

Another thing that made Utsusemi necessary in FFXI BRD pulling was that mobs you've exp'd off of hit like a truck and the BRD would die in 3~4 hits. This isn't the case anymore in FFXIV. Yes, Utsusemi will probably still better, but Stoneskin will do just fine, and therefore, Utsusemi doesn't hold as much importance in pulling in FFXIV compared to FFXI.

Also, when I said demerits that other people mentioned, it's mostly to point out people who gave examples in how Utsusemi could be exploited. Yes, it wasn't abused all the time, but there is a precedent, and because it exists, there is no reason to believe that the same thing is not going to happen here too. Given the potential problems it can cause, the general consensus thus becomes 'don't bother'.

I will also say that people pulling mobs via riding a chocobo is silly. Make them stop and make them pull normally. If the mob is so far away that it requires a chocobo, move your camp closer.

[Xianghua]

With sleep songs? Sleep arrows? AoE Sleep songs? AoE Sleep arrows? Your third question has already been answered, but I'll say it again: Too many times I've seen some random single party member jump on a Choco, ride headlong to a distant group of mobs and only bring back 1-3. This after some time had passed as they tried in vain to trigger sight aggro, only to get their Choco maimed and make it back far too slowly. This given that you're fighting mobs that do aggro.

We have no sleep songs/arrows? People being Idiots and not knowing how to pull isn't a valid reason for needing ustu.

[Xoo]

You make good points about static vs roaming so I don't have any arguments there, but I will say there is the possibility that mindset might change with the implementation of jobs. We'll see.

However, I will like to point out that you said that it's important for mages to remain static because they heal MP faster. What you need to remember is that because BRD songs are actually spells that consume MP (if Swiftsong is any indication) as opposed to no-cost FFXI songs. It gives a reason for BRDs to remain static. I suppose you can argue that you can ignore the MP costs through the use of the MP regen you receive from the MP regen spell, but then the same argument could be used against other mages. No reason they can't roam, too.

Ranged weapons having less range than a normal Bow shot isn't that much an issue when pulling mobs because, unlike FFXI, mobs no longer hit you as long as you've put at least some distance between them. Mobs hitting me even though it look liked I put good distance in-between always annoyed me in FFXI.

Another thing that made Utsusemi necessary in FFXI BRD pulling was that mobs you've exp'd off of hit like a truck and the BRD would die in 3~4 hits. This isn't the case anymore in FFXIV. Yes, Utsusemi will probably still better, but Stoneskin will do just fine, and therefore, Utsusemi doesn't hold as much importance in pulling in FFXIV compared to FFXI, and even less of a reason to give it to BRD.

Also, when I said demerits that other people mentioned, it's mostly to point out people who gave examples in how Utsusemi could be exploited. Yes, it wasn't abused all the time, but there is a precedent, and because it exists, there is no reason to believe that the same thing is not going to happen here too.

I will also say that people pulling mobs via riding a chocobo is silly. Make them stop and make them pull normally.

Bard will not have to move for a good time whilst the first 3 mobs are being killed. I assume this will be plenty of time to regain MP. The only reason I say that long range is necessary is due to the fact of 1 member's distand seperation from the group means no links when pulling. The rudamentary mockup I gave earlier displays the necessity for a longer ranged attack.

If a BRD is of appropriate level to be pulling from a worthwhile group of EXP mobs, then absolutely death is a threat. Having 4-5 Lv50 Ixali on your little Lv40 frame is going to hurt quickly.

I'm sure that Utsusemi for Bard will give it some advantages for survival, but does Second Wind favored to PGL make it invincible? Does Life Surge mean a Lancer can never die? A bit thin for examples, but I hope you can follow what I'm trying to say.

[Xianghua]

Bard will not have to move for a good time whilst the first 3 mobs are being killed. I assume this will be plenty of time to regain MP. The only reason I say that long range is necessary is due to the fact of 1 member's distand seperation from the group means no links when pulling. The rudamentary mockup I gave earlier displays the necessity for a longer ranged attack.

If a BRD is of appropriate level to be pulling from a worthwhile group of EXP mobs, then absolutely death is a threat. Having 4-5 Lv50 Ixali on your little Lv40 frame is going to hurt quickly.

I'm sure that Utsusemi for Bard will give it some advantages for survival, but does Second Wind favored to PGL make it invincible? Does Life Surge mean a Lancer can never die? A bit thin for examples, but I hope you can follow what I'm trying to say.

I understand what your trying to say. But here is the thing if the party can't handle the mobs to begin with without utsu. What makes you think they will be able to handle it with its puller having utsu? Adding sleep songs /arrows just to add utsu isn't really a valid answer.

[Xoo]

We have no sleep songs/arrows? People being Idiots and not knowing how to pull isn't a valid reason for needing ustu.

I must have missed it - where is the list of Bard actions and why isn't sleep in it!? What I'm saying is, is a Chocobo is not really designed to pull monsters. Mostly because it can be maimed and slowed, further adding to the time it has taken for the person that would be pulling (Gladiator) who is absolutely the last person I would choose to pull for me, as he is bound to the current mob.

Stanislaw mentioned earlier that he loved meripo on BRD. You know why that is? Because he could pull non-stop and watch the EXP flow. It was mean, fast, and most of all controlled.

[Xianghua]

I must have missed it - where is the list of Bard actions and why isn't sleep in it!? What I'm saying is, is a Chocobo is not really designed to pull monsters. Mostly because it can be maimed and slowed, further adding to the time it has taken for the person that would be pulling (Gladiator) who is absolutely the last person I would choose to pull for me, as he is bound to the current mob.

Stanislaw mentioned earlier that he loved meripo on BRD. You know why that is? Because he could pull non-stop and watch the EXP flow. It was mean, fast, and most of all controlled.

Yes i was brd on XI but it was a completely different style of leveling and battle. You don't need a choco to pull just like you don't need utsu to pull. It just makes it easier.

[Stanislaw]

Bard will not have to move for a good time whilst the first 3 mobs are being killed. I assume this will be plenty of time to regain MP. The only reason I say that long range is necessary is due to the fact of 1 member's distand seperation from the group means no links when pulling. The rudamentary mockup I gave earlier displays the necessity for a longer ranged attack.

If a BRD is of appropriate level to be pulling from a worthwhile group of EXP mobs, then absolutely death is a threat. Having 4-5 Lv50 Ixali on your little Lv40 frame is going to hurt quickly.

I'm sure that Utsusemi for Bard will give it some advantages for survival, but does Second Wind favored to PGL make it invincible? Does Life Surge mean a Lancer can never die? A bit thin for examples, but I hope you can follow what I'm trying to say.

Wait, I'm a bit confused. In the first paragraph you say that the reason why the puller is so far away from the rest of the group is so s/he can pull one mob at a time, but at the same time describe you killing multiple mobs. In a situation when you only wanted to pull a single mob but you liked multiple, you can easily leash the mobs back in place, which is a big contrast compared to FFXI where multiple links usually meant death for the puller. Not that it always works, of course (such as the potential problem of running into an entirely different group of mobs in an attempt to run away).

Also, if you're fighting lv50 mobs at lv40, you're doing something very very wrong. It's way more cost effective to fight mobs 3~4 levels above you rather than 10, even in a PT. Quantity over quality.

Also, comparing Utsusemi to Second Wind and Life Surge is bit of a stretch because Utsuemi's potential far exceeds those two abilities. The biggest strength of Utsusemi was guaranteed evasion, no matter how strong it is. Theoretically speaking, this means that you can evade the Guardian of the Grove's attack (9999 damage) at least three times. Or any other lv90+ mobs roaming around areas like Mor Dohna for that matter. The other two abilities don't even come close.

[Xoo]

I understand what your trying to say. But here is the thing if the party can't handle the mobs to begin with without utsu. What makes you think they will be able to handle it with its puller having utsu? Adding sleep songs /arrows just to add utsu isn't really a valid answer.

Although I never did any meriting on Bard, I do vividly remember the trip I made as BRD/NIN at the Goblin Outpost in Eastern Altepa Desert. That is where I absolutely fell in love with the job and never looked back. With a good tank, I could pull one goblin, let the tank catch it, go out for the next pull meanwhile, sleep one nearby and as it slept, pull another near it. Run back to the melee group, buff 1x, Utsusemi (pulled mob is attacking me), Sleepga (other mob has joined), Tank vokes 1 of the 2 as the first is dead, Buff with 2nd melee song, pull again with Sleep, Run to mages, Utsusemi, Buff them and repeat.

It all amounted to a never-ending supply of Goblins, rotating sleep and utsusemi to rarely be hit by an IT mob.

[Xoo]

I gotta get to bed. I'll comment later.

[Xianghua]

Although I never did any meriting on Bard, I do vividly remember the trip I made as BRD/NIN at the Goblin Outpost in Eastern Altepa Desert. That is where I absolutely fell in love with the job and never looked back. With a good tank, I could pull one goblin, let the tank catch it, go out for the next pull meanwhile, sleep one nearby and as it slept, pull another near it. Run back to the melee group, buff 1x, Utsusemi (pulled mob is attacking me), Sleepga (other mob has joined), Tank vokes 1 of the 2 as the first is dead, Buff with 2nd melee song, pull again with Sleep, Run to mages, Utsusemi, Buff them and repeat.

It all amounted to a never-ending supply of Goblins, rotating sleep and utsusemi to rarely be hit by an IT mob.

Bard can be a great puller and pull quickly without the need of Utsusemi. If you want brd to be a puller thats all you have to say.