The problem with Monk isn't positionals (opinion piece)

[Shurrikhan]

As I said earlier in the thread, MNK needs an actual rework that connects its systems to one another and for its skills to work together without the niche crap clogging it up by being adjusted with the rework in mind.

Like what, though? What, to your mind, is an example of things "working together"?

Again, you've given half a dozen things you don't want, but I can't recall a single example outside of perhaps turning positionals into Chakra generators that'd "connect" beyond "use oGCD during damage window". Howling Fist, Steel Peak, Elixir Field, etc., are empty apm without a competing use for what advantages them (e.g., TK, as per 4.3 Monk). Hell, having actual choice in what one uses goes a far longer way to make a deep, fulfilling kit than does late-5.x "just hit all the things". Even back in ARR and HW, ToD was only particularly interesting because of Fracture; without Fracture, ToD couldn't align anything at all outside of a high-ping, zero-SkS build, providing the kit with no further choice or considerations beyond what Demolish already provided. (And if having two providers of the gameplay matter is apparently so wasteful that SSS, regardless of potency, must be turned into a simple oGCD or removed....)

Some skills, like One Ilm Punch, Haymaker and Featherfoot, were incredibly limited in scope admittedly so their removal wasn't really that big a deal but then we have skills like Touch of Death and Howling Fist that got removed that really shouldn't have been removed.

Consolidation =/= Ability pruning. Consolidation is what allows us NOT to prune older abilities when adding new ones. Most significant skills we've lost were lost due to a lack of logical consolidation (Fire IV <-> Blizzard IV, etc.) amid rising ability counts.

[Defensives] don't reward smart play and that's my only real complaint about them.

They do, though. I've frequently lived through the time it takes healers to be hardcast rezzed by a SMN by grace of RoE. I'd prefer healers have a degree of smart-casting or that AoE heals had lower relative power as not to make DPS defensives unimportant while healers are still alive, but defensives do reward smart play. I wouldn't be against making them do that more significantly, but you're literally asking for the removal of something that provides more opportunities per minute to reward skillful play than do the skills whose removal upset you (ToD and HF, each outside of highly specific contexts).

[Silver-Strider]

Like what, though? What, to your mind, is an example of things "working together"?

I'll just copy my suggestions over.

1st off, I would get rid of the crit requirement to gain Chakra and remove the Chakra gain from Brotherhood. Instead, I would tie Chakra gain to positionals so landing a positional grants you a Chakra.
Next, I would have TFC/Enlightenment act as the opener for the Beast Chakra gauge so using either skil would allow your next 3 Weapon skills to open up their corresponding Beast Chakra as they currently do under Perfect Balance. Since Nadi would no longer be tied in with Perfect Balance and thus the Beast Chakra gauge no longer be dependant on specific skills to be used, just have us cycle thru each Blitz from Elixir Field to Rising Phoenix to Phantom Rush, with each Blitz progressing in power.
Turn Celestial Revolution into a 120s oGCD attack that instantly grants 1 Nadi effectively skipping 1 Masterful Blitz attack during our burst window so as to get Phantom Rush in.
Turn Six Sided Star into a 60s oGCD attack that instantly grants 5 Chakra.
Return the positional negation to Riddle of Earth

Consolidation =/= Ability pruning. Consolidation is what allows us NOT to prune older abilities when adding new ones.

And yet they decide to remove skills rather than Consolidate them. Tell me, if Fist of Earth/Wind/Fire had been made into low level version of Riddle of Earth/Wind/Fire, it would've accomplished the same thing as removing them but it would make the Low Level version of MNK much better to play because they have a more complete version of their toolkit available at low levels and can get into the proper flow of their job rather than get these tools on the tail end of their leveling experience. So where's the logic in removing them if a simple rework would've suffice?

I'd prefer healers have a degree of smart-casting or that AoE heals had lower relative power as not to make DPS defensives unimportant while healers are still alive

Yes let's nerf Healers because they're the reason why defensive skills are unimportant and totally not the fact that fights have scripted oncoming damage, to say nothing of the plethora of group mitigative tools currently flying everywhere. Defensive CDs on DPS is little more than Accident Forgiven because someone screwed up and while nice to have, really don't matter since fights are too scripted for them to have much of an impact anyway.

[Shurrikhan]

And yet they decide to remove skills rather than Consolidate them. Tell me, if Fist of Earth/Wind/Fire had been made into low level version of Riddle of Earth/Wind/Fire, it would've accomplished the same thing as removing them but it would make the Low Level version of MNK much better to play because they have a more complete version of their toolkit available at low levels and can get into the proper flow of their job rather than get these tools on the tail end of their leveling experience. So where's the logic in removing them if a simple rework would've suffice?

...???

I'm not the one advocating for their removal. I'm literally the guy who's been asking for the consolidation of unnecessary buttons instead of ability removal while you've campaigning that we should remove actual abilities.

Yes let's nerf Healers because they're the reason why defensive skills are unimportant and totally not the fact that fights have scripted oncoming damage, to say nothing of the plethora of group mitigative tools currently flying everywhere.

Wanting smart-casting or for 8-man healing to actually use a degree of selective heals on allies other than random-target mechanic victims or the tank has nothing to do with wanting healing nerfed.

It's precisely because it's basically all just AoE healing that there's so no reward for any fewer than all but one players in a raid taking less damage. As soon as it's two or more, you're better off just AoE healing them unless there's a White-Hole-like coming up any you'll have to pick who lives and who dies.

1st off, I would get rid of the crit requirement to gain Chakra and remove the Chakra gain from Brotherhood. Instead, I would tie Chakra gain to positionals so landing a positional grants you a Chakra.

I prefer Bootshine and Shadow of the Destroyer feeling more significant as a result of crit granting Chakra, but I wouldn't hate this.

Next, I would have TFC/Enlightenment act as the opener for the Beast Chakra gauge so using either skil would allow your next 3 Weapon skills to open up their corresponding Beast Chakra as they currently do under Perfect Balance. Since Nadi would no longer be tied in with Perfect Balance and thus the Beast Chakra gauge no longer be dependant on specific skills to be used, just have us cycle thru each Blitz from Elixir Field to Rising Phoenix to Phantom Rush, with each Blitz progressing in power.

So a Blitz every 5 GCDs on the DoT? (Or 15 GCDs, if you don't give back the 4 positionals?) No Blitzes available from AoE since AoEs have no positionals? I'm not sure I dig that, especially the lack of bankability.

Turn Celestial Revolution into a 120s oGCD attack that instantly grants 1 Nadi effectively skipping 1 Masterful Blitz attack during our burst window so as to get Phantom Rush in.

You get PR into a burst window either way. Just the not the first one. If you want it aligned with even minutes, you use a double-Solar opener and that's it. That's only encouraged for certain fight lengths and amounts of rDPS received anyways.

Turn Six Sided Star into a 60s oGCD attack that instantly grants 5 Chakra.

Without any added Chakra margin, this means we'd have to randomly wait 1-4 GCDs not to overcap the Chakra generation and couldn't use it mid-Blitz-builder without likewise wasting Chakra since we can't spend Chakra until we exit the build. That seems likely to be clunky.

Return the positional negation to Riddle of Earth.

Sure. I'm guessing you are adding back the 4 lost positionals, though?

On the whole, this seems a decent line of change, but my main issues here are that the Blitzes would (unless you're not bringing back the positionals) be incredibly frequent (at most 10s apart) but with zero bankability and, despite their frequency, would still barely varied (only A, then B, then C, looping). Moreover, you'd be spending a 60s and 120s CD just to generate yet more Blitz (and some free potency), which were only 10s apart anyways. (?) Right now, Blitzes feel decently powerful and deliberate, but that seems like it'd be unlikely to continue if we were using them this frequently. At that point, it feels like we'd need either more Blitz options or a more cumulative/advanced Blitz than just Tornado Kick / Phantom Rush.

[Silver-Strider]

...???
I'm not the one advocating for their removal.

I'm not saying that you're advocating for it but rather that SE's doesn't distinguish between Consolidation and Ability Pruning so I view it as the same thing. I'm also not campaigning for skill removal, more so that we have a more cohesive toolkit.

On the whole, this seems a decent line of change, but my main issues here are that the Blitzes would (unless you're not bringing back the positionals) be incredibly frequent (at most 10s apart) but with zero bankability and, despite their frequency, would still barely varied (only A, then B, then C, looping). Moreover, you'd be spending a 60s and 120s CD just to generate yet more Blitz (and some free potency), which were only 10s apart anyways. (?) Right now, Blitzes feel decently powerful and deliberate, but that seems like it'd be unlikely to continue if we were using them this frequently. At that point, it feels like we'd need either more Blitz options or a more cumulative/advanced Blitz than just Tornado Kick / Phantom Rush.

It's not a perfect rework as I haven't put much thought into it and just have it as a baseline suggestion on how I would like for MNK's systems to work. I could see returning the positional requirements on Dragon Kick/Bootshine and leaving off Twin Snakes and True Strike so as to reel in the amount of Blitz we accumulate to a more reasonable level, or even just having Bootshine/True Strike/Snap Punch being the positional skills for Chakra while Dragon Kick/Twin Snakes/Demolish remain as they are, minus the Demolish positional. For our AoE rotation, there was a time when Rockbreaker had a positional so maybe that could be a thing again but I admit it would need work. As for SSS, I was just trying to make it useful really. It could be as simple as adding 1 Chakra if that is more balanced so long as it worked with the systems in some way.

The overall goal is just to make MNK's toolkit work together towards something rather than just having a skill for the sake of having them.

[Shurrikhan]

It's not a perfect rework as I haven't put much thought into it and just have it as a baseline suggestion on how I would like for MNK's systems to work.

Fair enough.

I could see returning the positional requirements on Dragon Kick/Bootshine and leaving off Twin Snakes and True Strike so as to reel in the amount of Blitz we accumulate to a more reasonable level, or even just having Bootshine/True Strike/Snap Punch being the positional skills for Chakra while Dragon Kick/Twin Snakes/Demolish remain as they are, minus the Demolish positional.

I think that much is a must. If you left MNK at only 2 positionals, then Blitz would be on a 30s CD and any missed positional would delay Blitz by 6 seconds, which would feel devastating macro-rotationally.

For our AoE rotation, there was a time when Rockbreaker had a positional

There was not. Not in ARR. Not in HW. Never. There was a time when True Strike's positional was miniscule (a 5% bonus crit chance), when Twin Snakes had only a 12 second duration, when Bootshine fell short of True Strike if one had even 35% crit chance under buffs, when Demolish's DoT didn't scale with Greased Lightning, when Impulse Drive was Monk's optimal filler attack (though limited to short fights due to its TP drain), when ToD wouldn't wake sleeping enemies, and when One-Ilm-Punch ruined Summoner's days by stealing every stack of their Aetherflow, but there was never a time when Rockbreaker, an AoE, had a positional.

As for SSS, I was just trying to make it useful really. It could be as simple as adding 1 Chakra if that is more balanced so long as it worked with the systems in some way.

This is where we're going to have to agree to disagree then. To me, the best thing about your SSS rework is actually its anti-synergy, since at least that stops it from being empty apm in a context that can't naturally turn that into something interesting (i.e., unlike when it was better to get an extra True Strike in and let Twin Snakes fall off just before DK unless you had oGCDs coming up or the 4.3 TK rotations), but I imagine most players would pop a brain-leak over it. In either case, I don't see how a button that simply offers a free Blitz per minute, especially to go alongside a button that just offers a free Blitz reward every other minute, would be superior to an SSS that's simply had its potency increased.

The overall goal is just to make MNK's toolkit work together towards something rather than just having a skill for the sake of having them.

To me, the rough suggestion for SSS and Celestial Rotation feel like the latter. I'd rather have situational skills than just "more of the same, for free, per x minutes". But again, that's just where our preferences diverge. I like having a more even distribution of obligatory button presses, little convolution (added steps that don't ultimately increase depth), and decisions to be made between competing paths of action.

To give a simple example, I preferred when Guren/Senei cost 50 gauge and Ikishoten was on half as long a cooldown so they, together, actually made the Kenki gauge an element worth being mindful of, as compared to the current version of Ikishoten's simply directly affording every Guren/Senei and unlocking a further skill (that takes up its own button despite being otherwise unusable) while Guren/Senei cost no more than the standard 25 Kenki of Shinten/Kyuten.

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EDIT: Ran out of posts:

You're right, it used to be a conal attack and I misremembered that as a positional cause I would always go to rear to make sure it hit everything.

Ahh, that actually makes a lot of sense. Yes, it did certainly take some positioning before, just not... target-relative positioning. Also, I miss that cone and its extra range. It was weirdly relevant back in T9 when GL was only 10s long, and the animation makes far less sense without it.

Technicality aside though, it could still work in relation to being the AoE Chakra accumulator or we could just leave Shadow of the Destroyer to do that, either or.

If you're thinking of bringing positionals back to DK and Bootshine, then I'd just slap into onto Opo-opo and Coeurl skills in general (though only on successful hit on AoEs or successful positional on STs, ofc). Prior to Form Shift, it'd feel like 2 GCD to ramp up to contributing to Blitz, then 2 GCDs contributing, then 1 GCD off for every 2 on, etc.

The feel of downtime (and, heck, in-combat Meditation) feel would still be super wonky, though, so long as Meditation recharges Chakra (and fully so, outside of combat) which in turn unlocks Blitz...

[Silver-Strider]

There was not. Not in ARR. Not in HW. Never. There was a time when True Strike's positional was miniscule (a 5% bonus crit chance), when Twin Snakes had only a 12 second duration, when Bootshine fell short of True Strike if one had even 35% crit chance under buffs, when Demolish's DoT didn't scale with Greased Lightning, when Impulse Drive was Monk's optimal filler attack (though limited to short fights due to its TP drain), when ToD wouldn't wake sleeping enemies, and when One-Ilm-Punch ruined Summoner's days by stealing every stack of their Aetherflow, but there was never a time when Rockbreaker, an AoE, had a positional.

You're right, it used to be a conal attack and I misremembered that as a positional cause I would always go to rear to make sure it hit everything. Technicality aside though, it could still work in relation to being the AoE Chakra accumulator or we could just leave Shadow of the Destroyer to do that, either or.

This is where we're going to have to agree to disagree then. To me, the best thing about your SSS rework is actually its anti-synergy, since at least that stops it from being empty apm in a context that can't naturally turn that into something interesting (i.e., unlike when it was better to get an extra True Strike in and let Twin Snakes fall off just before DK unless you had oGCDs coming up or the 4.3 TK rotations), but I imagine most players would pop a brain-leak over it. In either case, I don't see how a button that simply offers a free Blitz per minute, especially to go alongside a button that just offers a free Blitz reward every other minute, would be superior to an SSS that's simply had its potency increased.

To me, the rough suggestion for SSS and Celestial Rotation feel like the latter. I'd rather have situational skills than just "more of the same, for free, per x minutes". But again, that's just where our preferences diverge. I like having a more even distribution of obligatory button presses, little convolution (added steps that don't ultimately increase depth), and decisions to be made between competing paths of action.

To give a simple example, I preferred when Guren/Senei cost 50 gauge and Ikishoten was on half as long a cooldown so they, together, actually made the Kenki gauge an element worth being mindful of, as compared to the current version of Ikishoten's simply directly affording every Guren/Senei and unlocking a further skill (that takes up its own button despite being otherwise unusable) while Guren/Senei cost no more than the standard 25 Kenki of Shinten/Kyuten.

That's fair. Differences in opinion.