The problem with Monk isn't positionals (opinion piece)

[Silver-Strider]

No, please, to both of these.

Thunderclap is a fine replacement for Shoulder Tackle. We merely should have gotten back its apm elsewhere. (Technically, we did, via increased Chakra intake, but that still leaves necessary compensation for the apm lost from removing Elixir Field and the oGCD that carries the name and animation of what was TK.)

Six-sided Star is fine as a finisher and disengage. I'd rather have a situational tool than empty apm. That's not to say that I dislike APM; I'm just not willing to lose a single tool for it, especially when increased apm does not oblige the removal of decent tools. And, yes, SSS is a decent tool -- though no better than "decent" -- and certainly has more reason to exist as a given button than does Meditation or, especially, Form Shift.

Thunderclap has 3 charges specifically to be used as a means of engaging and disengaging from an enemy so I fail to see the need of SSS as another disengagement tool. MNK needs more than just niche or decent skills, it needs direction in its job design. Right now, MNK just has a lot of button bloat with no substance to them that either need to be reworked or just flat out removed and SSS is one of those skills that desperately needs something to make it actually usable rather than being another One Ilm Punch.

[Shurrikhan]

Thunderclap has 3 charges specifically to be used as a means of engaging and disengaging from an enemy so I fail to see the need of SSS as another disengagement tool. MNK needs more than just niche or decent skills, it needs direction in its job design. Right now, MNK just has a lot of button bloat with no substance to them that either need to be reworked or just flat out removed and SSS is one of those skills that desperately needs something to make it actually usable rather than being another One Ilm Punch.

It is the least button bloated of any melee DPS, though?

DRG - 8 buttons that have no reason to exist. (Mirage Dive separate from Jump, separate buttons for linear combos; F&C and WT as separate skills despite being mutually exclusive and literally not usable except in their proper orders)
NIN - 4 buttons that have no reason to exist. (Ninjutsu as a separate button from any repeated Mudra, since such would already end the series; Spinning Edge and Gust Blade as separate from Armor Break / Aeolian Edge, since they're non-decisions; Phantom Kamaitachi as separate from Bunshin, as they are linearly sequenced, just like DWaW and Assassination before.)
RPR - 4 buttons that have no reason to exist. (2 purely linear combos wasting 2 buttons each.)
SAM - 3 buttons that have no reason to exist. (Hakaze, Fuga/Fuko, Ogi as separate from Ikkishoten despite being unlocked only by the latter.)
MNK - If you never had a reason to minimize downtime while moving in a direction separate from any enemies or allies (so, definitely don't play certain Savage fights), 1 button.

Is Anatman lackluster? Yes. Is SSS undertuned? Yes, faintly. But I fail to see how giving it fewer tools for optimizing uptime would somehow give MNK, thematically/historically the most uptime-obsessed of any melee, more "direction in its job design".

[Silver-Strider]

MNK - If you never had a reason to minimize downtime while moving in a direction separate from any enemies or allies (so, definitely don't play certain Savage fights), 1 button.

.....and certainly has more reason to exist as a given button than does Meditation or, especially, Form Shift.

It's funny how you argue that MNK has only 1 skill that is button bloat while also saying that Mediate and Form Shift are essentially worthless and would constitute as Button Bloat. I don't see Button Bloat as an argument at all if the skills in question are functionally relevant to a class's rotation. It doesn't matter if High Jump and Mirage Dive are separate buttons because the only thing that matters is that they build up Dragon Gauge, which is a part of DRG's rotation. Anataman and SSS don't do anything for MNK and I'd even argue Riddle of Earth is also purely unnecessary now that positionals aren't a thing. They don't contribute anything to MNK in relation to its mechanics nor rotation so why do they exist? If SE's agenda of merging skills or removing them is purely to combat button bloat that are seen as fluff and don't negatively impact the class, then all 3 of those skills can easily go the way of the Dodo and begone but for some asinine reason they exist still which is absolutely baffling when you consider that their spokesperson for one of the Live Letters leading up to EW pretty much said that Anatman was just a MNK exclusive emote at this point. It's not an excuse at all.

As for how removing skills to maximize uptime is useful, it isn't but SSS isn't really that useful regardless. There is exactly 2 moments when SSS is a DPS gain. One is if a Disengage is longer than 5 seconds and the other is if we have more than 1 Chakra during a short Disengage. In the case that we have 0-1 Chakra during a short Disengage, than its better to use your GCD on anything else and use the disengage time to use Mediate instead since the 5s Slow down on SSS would effectively lose out to the 4-5 Chakras from Mediate, with the lone exception being if we missed the positional on Snap Punch and that's only a potency gain of 10.

If potency is really the only benefit to SSS than a 2nd charge to TFC/Enlightenment would accomplish the same thing without the need to jump thru hoops to do so while also not contributing to the button bloat that is SSS.

[Shurrikhan]

It's funny how you argue that MNK has only 1 skill that is button bloat while also saying that Mediate and Form Shift are essentially worthless and would constitute as Button Bloat.

A good point. I left out utility skills, focusing only on attacks, apart from the aforementioned gap-closer (Thunderclap) since it used to be an attack skill.

Yes, I do think Meditate and Form Shift could be made passive, much like I'd say the same for Umbral Soul and its practical UI/AF interactions.

By my view, if we include everything, MNK would have 2 bloat skills. SSS still would not be among them, however.

Riddle of Earth is also purely unnecessary now that positionals aren't a thing.

Then I take it the self-heal of Life Surge, Shade Shift, Arcane Crest, and the defensive value of Third Eye also ought to be removed? It's a defensive. It'd have as much reason to exist as any other defensive, even without positionals being attached. At present it has a wonky bonus duration when used outside of uptime (or penalty for being used during uptime) but it otherwise acts just like any other.

It doesn't matter if High Jump and Mirage Dive are separate buttons because the only thing that matters is that they build up Dragon Gauge, which is a part of DRG's rotation.

You realize you're literally describing bloat, right? Note I did not say "ability bloat", but "button bloat". You cannot Mirage Dive without first having used (High) Jump. Jump being replaced while on its CD and while Mirage Dive Ready is active would not somehow prevent Mirage Dive from providing Dragon gauge. It would just waste one button fewer.

Leaving their keys separate does not allow for increased complexity; you literally cannot use the two skills at the same time or in any different order.

5s Slow down on SSS

5s is the movement speed buff duration. SSS's uptime cost is 2 GCDs, or 4 seconds at 0 SkS for 275 ppgcd. (Meditation's uptime cost, on the other hand, does not scale with GCD speed and thus decreases from a relative 136 ppgcd as SkS increases.)

If potency is really the only benefit to SSS...

I never made that claim. I said its benefits were equally as a finisher, which is not something 5 extra Chakra would provide despite giving us a(n arguably overpowered and unnecessary) bonus 720 or 340n potency per pull rechargeable with a single second of uptime between them.

[Silver-Strider]

Yes, I do think Meditate and Form Shift could be made passive, much like I'd say the same for Umbral Soul and its practical UI/AF interactions.

This I disagree with. Meditate is MNK's answer to having no ranged attack so while other DPS are able to hit an enemy from range, now with no detriment to their rotation, MNK uses Meditate for a similar functionality and I don't see it being possible to turn it into a trait. I also can't imagine a way to make Form Shift into a passive that wouldn't screw over the rotation at all. If anything, it feels like the perfect skill to tie refreshing our Disciplined Fist buff rather than Anatman so that can be cut out.

Then I take it the self-heal of Life Surge, Shade Shift, Arcane Crest, and the defensive value of Third Eye also ought to be removed?

In the case of Life Surge and Third Eye, they offer some fluff use to their respective class, Life Surge granting a guaranteed crit on a Weapon Skill and Third Eye offering Kenki. As for the other 3 skills, I find them underwhelming because they don't really offer much to their respective classes other than mitigation and should be adjusted or removed, in much the same way that Riddle of Earth should.

You realize you're literally describing bloat, right?

I'm aware but I find the argument of button bloat as a whole to be ridiculous considering that we had more abilities back in Heavensward and were able to function just fine so why the sudden obsession is beyond me but that's beside the point. My point is that, unlike SSS, High Jump and Mirage Dive are part of DRG's rotation to build on its job systems and helps to contribute to the job as a whole in a meaningful way. If SSS was reworked in a way that was beneficial to MNK's rotation, I'd be singing a different tune.

I never made that claim. I said its benefits were equally as a finisher, which is not something 5 extra Chakra would provide despite giving us a(n arguably overpowered and unnecessary) bonus 720 or 340n potency per pull rechargeable with a single second of uptime between them.

I just don't see a point in the skill as it currently is. We have a disengage skill in Thunderclap and SSS is a niche DPS skill at best. Haymaker and One Ilm Punch were also niche DPS skill but would I argue for them to come back? No because they were niche and don't really help MNK, just like SSS.

[Shurrikhan]

This I disagree with. Meditate is MNK's answer to having no ranged attack so while other DPS are able to hit an enemy from range.

I never said otherwise, only that such doesn't require a button. Choosing to use Meditation can be done as simply as choosing not to use your GCD in any other way. For every half-GCD off the global cooldown, you get a Chakra, with cumulative and retained progress towards the next gain over time spent off the GCD.

they don't really offer much to their respective classes other than mitigation and should be adjusted or removed

So, simply... dps shouldn't have mitigation?

I'm aware but I find the argument of button bloat as a whole to be ridiculous considering that we had more abilities back in Heavensward and were able to function just fine so why the sudden obsession

Except, consolidation has been a hot topic precisely since (and because of) Heavensward. How did you manage to avoid seeing the various threads about Fell Cleave and Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone and Decimate, Enochian, Fire IV, and Blizzard IV, Fang & Claw and Wheeling Thrust, or Aetherflow spenders and Aetherflow, or even Meditation itself? Most of the consolidation we have today is because of complaints made since Heavensward. The topic is neither sudden nor new. Wasteful button design didn't just somehow go unnoticed earlier.

they were niche and don't really help MNK

So, what does "help", then?

Mitigation's a no. Indirect mobility's a no. Reactives are a no. GCD-length variance is a no. So, what finally manages a slot for you?

Is it fluff apm like mindless hit-on-CD oGCDs? Easy potency (despite it having to have merely been siphoned from elsewhere anyways) without zero interactions, like the old Elixir Field and the late-ShB TK? What?

[Silver-Strider]

I never said otherwise, only that such doesn't require a button. Choosing to use Meditation can be done as simply as choosing not to use your GCD in any other way. For every half-GCD off the global cooldown, you get a Chakra, with cumulative and retained progress towards the next gain over time spent off the GCD.

That just sounds awful honestly.

So, simply... dps shouldn't have mitigation?

DPS shouldn't have skill that JUST mitigate. Life Surge and Third Eye offer something along side the mitigation that make them feel at least more useful. Why can't Shade Shift give Ninki? Why can't Manawall give some MP back? Why are we not rewarded for using our mitigation in some way other than just make it easier on the healer? They don't reward smart play and that's my only real complaint about them.

Except, consolidation has been a hot topic precisely since (and because of) Heavensward. How did you manage to avoid seeing the various threads about Fell Cleave and Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone and Decimate, Enochian, Fire IV, and Blizzard IV, Fang & Claw and Wheeling Thrust, or Aetherflow spenders and Aetherflow, or even Meditation itself? Most of the consolidation we have today is because of complaints made since Heavensward. The topic is neither sudden nor new. Wasteful button design didn't just somehow go unnoticed earlier.

Mainly because I never really viewed it as an issue. Some skills, like One Ilm Punch, Haymaker and Featherfoot, were incredibly limited in scope admittedly so their removal wasn't really that big a deal but then we have skills like Touch of Death and Howling Fist that got removed that really shouldn't have been removed. It's causes a Domino effect that just spiralled out of control with how much they've removed from the game, with some classes (or the entire Healer role for that matter) suffering more from than others. With MNK, they constantly remove skills just to reintroduce them again in a different way, which is how Howling Fist got replaced by Enlightenment and how Tornado Kick and Elixir Field got thrown into the Blitz System. It didn't do anything positive as far as I'm concerned, all it did was rehash the skills we lost in some way.

So, what does "help", then?

As I said earlier in the thread, MNK needs an actual rework that connects its systems to one another and for its skills to work together without the niche crap clogging it up by being adjusted with the rework in mind.

[ssunny2008]

DPS shouldn't have skill that JUST mitigate. Life Surge and Third Eye offer something along side the mitigation that make them feel at least more useful. Why can't Shade Shift give Ninki? Why can't Manawall give some MP back? Why are we not rewarded for using our mitigation in some way other than just make it easier on the healer? They don't reward smart play and that's my only real complaint about them.

Just scrolled by, BUT this is nonsense. Even the actual Third Eye IS nonsense.

Defensive options shouldn´t be there for a DPS gain. It´s not even hard to press this button into an upcoming aoe or while you´re under attack in solo play. You´re not even assisting the healers since any damage-income on DPS classes comes with an aoe and the healer have to heal the whole group anyway. In the worst case, some SAM players will actually stay in ground-aoe´s on purpose to get a little DPS gain on the healers cost. As long as you don´t get a damage-reduction debuff, who cares?!

Defs should be defs and nothing more! Imo DPS defs suck and using them on cd as DPS increase sucks also. Give us real defs, so we´re able to survive a little bit when the tank lies dead on the ground. SE could even add some real DPS-only mechanics to bosses, when we´ve some self-sustain. To survive a bunch of stuff thx to some defs and smart play, is reward enough. The current design, even that healer get MP back for healing, is just dumb af. A real ressource-management, real defs and real mechanics to care about, that´s what we need.

[Silver-Strider]

Just scrolled by, BUT this is nonsense. Even the actual Third Eye IS nonsense.

Defensive options shouldn´t be there for a DPS gain. It´s not even hard to press this button into an upcoming aoe or while you´re under attack in solo play. You´re not even assisting the healers since any damage-income on DPS classes comes with an aoe and the healer have to heal the whole group anyway. In the worst case, some SAM players will actually stay in ground-aoe´s on purpose to get a little DPS gain on the healers cost. As long as you don´t get a damage-reduction debuff, who cares?!

Defs should be defs and nothing more! Imo DPS defs suck and using them on cd as DPS increase sucks also. Give us real defs, so we´re able to survive a little bit when the tank lies dead on the ground. SE could even add some real DPS-only mechanics to bosses, when we´ve some self-sustain. To survive a bunch of stuff thx to some defs and smart play, is reward enough. The current design, even that healer get MP back for healing, is just dumb af. A real ressource-management, real defs and real mechanics to care about, that´s what we need.

I was just making suggestions really. They could do whatever the hell they want with DPS Def mechanics since, as you say, they're all pretty terrible anyway. The likelihood of that happening though is slim to none since SE is determined to make the game as accessible as possible, much to the detriment of the veteran players.

[Shurrikhan]

As I said earlier in the thread, MNK needs an actual rework that connects its systems to one another and for its skills to work together without the niche crap clogging it up by being adjusted with the rework in mind.

Like what, though? What, to your mind, is an example of things "working together"?

Again, you've given half a dozen things you don't want, but I can't recall a single example outside of perhaps turning positionals into Chakra generators that'd "connect" beyond "use oGCD during damage window". Howling Fist, Steel Peak, Elixir Field, etc., are empty apm without a competing use for what advantages them (e.g., TK, as per 4.3 Monk). Hell, having actual choice in what one uses goes a far longer way to make a deep, fulfilling kit than does late-5.x "just hit all the things". Even back in ARR and HW, ToD was only particularly interesting because of Fracture; without Fracture, ToD couldn't align anything at all outside of a high-ping, zero-SkS build, providing the kit with no further choice or considerations beyond what Demolish already provided. (And if having two providers of the gameplay matter is apparently so wasteful that SSS, regardless of potency, must be turned into a simple oGCD or removed....)

Some skills, like One Ilm Punch, Haymaker and Featherfoot, were incredibly limited in scope admittedly so their removal wasn't really that big a deal but then we have skills like Touch of Death and Howling Fist that got removed that really shouldn't have been removed.

Consolidation =/= Ability pruning. Consolidation is what allows us NOT to prune older abilities when adding new ones. Most significant skills we've lost were lost due to a lack of logical consolidation (Fire IV <-> Blizzard IV, etc.) amid rising ability counts.

[Defensives] don't reward smart play and that's my only real complaint about them.

They do, though. I've frequently lived through the time it takes healers to be hardcast rezzed by a SMN by grace of RoE. I'd prefer healers have a degree of smart-casting or that AoE heals had lower relative power as not to make DPS defensives unimportant while healers are still alive, but defensives do reward smart play. I wouldn't be against making them do that more significantly, but you're literally asking for the removal of something that provides more opportunities per minute to reward skillful play than do the skills whose removal upset you (ToD and HF, each outside of highly specific contexts).