Monk Positionals 6.0

[Miralyth]

The thing is, you cannot use 'fun' as an objective standard as it varies from player to player.

Fun is a massive, and perhaps the most difficult, part of job design. Agreed, it definitely is not objective. No, missing a positional through no fault of my own is not the main thing that makes me find positionals not fun, but it is the main thing that annoys me about them. I otherwise am simply not interested in them - I did explain this. You said you skimmed, though, so I understand if this was lost as you read.

I appreciate you replying about cast bars vs. positionals and iterating again on the subject, but I already went into the detail of why they feel different (which I think you somewhat agree with). I already agreed that they have comparable merit on interruption/difficulty alone in previous posts, but their gameplay feel is decidedly different and that's the only bit that would be relevant to my feelings on positionals. I'm also aware of fight knowledge and iterating minor improvements on a fight as you get to know it, though I thank you for trying to inform me.

I also continue on from the discussion about comparing positionals to cast bars and how, while they are different mechanics, fundamentally, they are all about uptime on a boss in a given scenario which is quite restrictive. It is this problem solving that makes positionals subjectively fun for those that do find them fun.

The only thing I "disagree" with here is the fun factor of positionals. I don't find this process fun, and as I've said before, it's not about the challenge or anything - I just don't. Conversely, I do find cast bars fun in these situations.

(the remainder of my post is not aimed at you in particular)
My post was subjective and there was never any changing that. Some people replied to me, I can only assume because they don't like that my opinion differs, and tried to make what I said about something it wasn't (difficulty). Examples were used that were decidedly not about liking or not liking a mechanic, and I pointed out why the example isn't about liking or not liking a mechanic and therefore doesn't apply to me. If they had made those arguments standalone and not utilized my posts to do so, I never would have had a reason to reply.

The entire point of me sharing that positionals are not fun for me in this thread is not to be contentious. When a mechanic change is being protested on the official forum, I think it's important for all preferences to be heard. Mine is just "hey, I like this change, it's fun for me." I love monk thematically, that does not mean I have to love positionals.

If the developers see that people don't find something fun, they could perhaps try to replace it with something else in the future. That something else, too, could posit challenge.

Edit: changed some stuff for clarity.

[meowmaou]

However, with new Monk, it has all been ripped away and now, Melee do not have their 'Black Mage' equivalent.

You hit the nail on the head, here. I used to play BLM and then I realized that MNK basically felt like BLM but faster, punchy and with better glam options.

[Mikey_R]

The entire point of me sharing that positionals are not fun for me in this thread is not to be contentious. When a mechanic change is being protested on the official forum, I think it's important for all preferences to be heard. Mine is just "hey, I like this change, it's fun for me." I love monk thematically, that does not mean I have to love positionals.

If the developers see that people don't find something fun, they could perhaps try to replace it with something else in the future. That something else, too, could posit challenge.

I think alot of the problem is the one or two people that essentially celebrate about the removal of positionals and shove it in our faces, disregarding our feeling on the matter, although, I do believe you are aware of this and hopefully this doesn't sour your mood, however;

In regards to the second comment, just because some people do not find something fun, does not mean you should take it away from those that do. There are a great many people who do not share the opinion that positionals are bad, or not fun. Since such players exist that do find them fun to do, should there not be an option to do so? Everything that made people like Monk from the start has been taken away with nothing to replace that. I always go back to Dancer. I personally do not find it fun, I also realise I am (most likely) in the minority on that stance. However, should I start campaigning to change Dancer to something that should suit my needs? Of course not, that would be silly, so why has it affected Monk. In the case for Dancer, I do enjoy playing Machinist in the Ranged Physical Role, so, if I want to fill that spot, that is what I will play. In the case of Monk, there are plenty of melee jobs, 4 in fact, that do not have as many positionals as old Monk had, so they have plenty to pick from.

People got annoyed at bad tanks spinning bosses, I said, challenge accepted. I have said this in the past, but one of my early memories on Monk was doing Titan Hard, back when he was actually hard, on Monk, hitting most positionals (think 99%) and avoiding all dodgeable AoEs. It is this challenge, this satisfaction of knowing you done a good job that feels so good, unfortunately, people just cried and moaned about it and now that fun and satisfaction can no longer be achieved. It is not about everything fitting everyone, it is about something fitting someone. Noone needs to enjoy playing everything, but they need something they do enjoy.

[Miralyth]

I think alot of the problem is the one or two people that essentially celebrate about the removal of positionals and shove it in our faces, disregarding our feeling on the matter

(I had to snip the rest due to post length)

You're not souring my mood at all, you're polite and considerate; don't worry about it! As for the rest of what you've shared, I make no attempt to "shove it anyone's face," though there definitely have been some really rude people in this thread who seem to share in not liking positionals, and I don't approve of how they've treated others. I feel for anyone who has lost something they like. That's never fun, and I don't mean to celebrate your loss with my gain.

As for the majority vs. minority on this specific topic, that's a tough one. People are far more apt to share their opinion when they're frustrated vs. content. It follows that this thread would mostly have posters who are upset.

Regarding things being taken away, the opposite argument could be made that they have soured the flavor of everything else some original players have enjoyed since the start. My favorite element of monk (since ARR, although I did not play during HW) has always been GCD speed and the fluidity of stances vs. rigid combos. If they took that away, I'd be upset, too. I've never enjoyed positionals, and would welcome something else in their stead.

With that said, I definitely understand your frustration with the job being slowly transformed away from everything you liked about it. I've had this happen to me in other games, and it sucks. Despite that happening to me, if it lead to many more people liking the job, I can understand why it was done and I felt no need to blame the people who wound up enjoying the job from there on out. I get what you're saying about it being better to serve the needs of the few in love vs. the many with passing interest, but it's a little too stringent of an ethos for me. For all we know, the changes could make eventually make it so there are more who love the job than there were before.

I could go on about this, but I think I've already spent too much time on the forum when all I set out to do as add my preference on positionals to the pile that may or may not be read by developers. Looping back to you souring my mood or not, I've really enjoyed conversing with you, disagreement and all. I really need to stop posting as it is a bit too much of a distraction for me, and leaving on the note of having conversed with you is a pleasant enough end for me. Unlikely as it is, I hope that some day monk can be something we all love. I wish you the best!

[meowmaou]

It is this challenge, this satisfaction of knowing you done a good job that feels so good, unfortunately, people just cried and moaned about it and now that fun and satisfaction can no longer be achieved. It is not about everything fitting everyone, it is about something fitting someone. Noone needs to enjoy playing everything, but they need something they do enjoy.

This is personally the biggest problem I have with this game in general. The balancing seems to be based around trying to make everything super accessible and fun to "everybody" and relatively close in strength for all kinds of content, rather than having niches that cater to different types of players who want different things. Just look at where healing and tanking have ended up, and the state of queues because of it.

I really like having a slightly difficult job that I can improve at each time I play it, especially as somebody who mostly plays to hang out and chill. It gives me something engaging to do while I do that. I don't find hard content with simple jobs engaging, and I don't generally have a schedule that lets me do savage/ex stuff even if I wanted to commit that much time straight with no interruptions to it. But something like Bozja where some of the CEs are pretty challenging on a job that requires a lot of attention and skill is just right for me. The massive divide between braindead ultracasual play and "in a discord call with a bunch of sweaty nerds for 3 hours straight progging" with very little in between is really what keeps me from staying subbed all the time. We've got two extremes and next to no middle ground.

[ssunny2008]

As for the majority vs. minority on this specific topic, that's a tough one. People are far more apt to share their opinion when they're frustrated vs. content. It follows that this thread would mostly have posters who are upset.

The amount of ppl who showed up like "Get ride of positionals." wasn´t that big. There have been way more ppl like "they need to stay", because we enjoy playing them. If soooo many ppl would´ve been frustrated by positionals, where are they all?! The most guys may have been like "Ok, nothing for me.", but never felt frustrated or the need of changing a class. They found something to enjoy and played it.
Only a handful of ppl showed up like "I like aesthetics, i like a punching class, but i don´t like positionals". Given to some research those players don´t even play savage at all and just jump from one class to another. Instead if ignoring positionals, those who got nerfed and nerfed again and are not needed in casual content, they wanted to get ride of them for NO SERIOUS reason.

SE kicked every serious MNK - main in the nuts with their decision-making. They cater ppl who don´t give af or even say "Yeah i´m gonna enjoy this, but will not main it!" or "I´ll go play WAR, SMN, SGE first even new MNK is dope!"
It doesn´t make sense and even given to ff.logs, MNK imo shares the least played class together with NIN. Of course a lot of RPR are around atm, but it won´t change for sure.

Those who want MNK to be that positional heavy class are a clear majority for me. It´s a minor voice "get ride of them". Everyone else doesn´t care much and can´t be counted anyway.

with the job being slowly transformed away from everything you liked about it.

The bad thing about it is, that it doesn´t happened "slowly". It actually happened from yesterday to tomorrow. No communication at all about this and MNK in his recent form was only about positionals since GL was gone. So far everyone even expected just a replace for GL, not that SE takes 80-85% of all positionals away. Before it was even like a 10-15% damage loss if you ignore positionals pretty much. Now you´re going to ignore SP at best?! 60 potency only used out of the burstphase. I´m up for everything which counts a bit more damage, but since it´s no fun anymore, who gives af about that bit of potency?!

[ssunny2008]

100% this! I rarely play melee but when I do, I don't bother with positionals at all, lol. I just stand behind the boss all the time, moving to the side every few seconds is exhausting.

Nothing wrong with it in content which is not called savage. They shouldn´t hinder you from anything with this attitude.

Positionals are also unfair and impossible when I play solo (FATEs, side quests, etc).

That´s not true. You can CC pretty much everything to get behind it. If an enemy is targeting you, just move left or right for side-positionals, it´ll count. On top you´d true north and riddle of earth to play around them. Even your Chocobo could tank for you.
On the other hand, while melees have to play positionals, caster can be interrupted by enemies and may have to interrupt their cast by themselves to move out of an aoe. Physical ranged classes can play without such restrictions, but do less damage overall. So far it´s definately not unfair.

But then again, that's why I'm a RDM main. :') On a side note, my Monk has been sitting at lvl 40 for years, finally I'm a bit motivated to lvl it to 90, thanks to less positionals. It actually feels a lot more fun than last time I tried it!

Serious question, do you have any further plans with MNK?

It doesn´t read like you´ve some but leveling till 90. So... is it fair that a lot of MNK-mains got taken positionals away, that one thing they loved about the class and what has been the reason they stuck with it for years? I don´t think so, especially since you don´t bother with positionals anyway.

Nothing against your opinion and feelings of having fun on a class. But does every class has to be something for everyone? It actually doesn´t sound like you´re "equal" to some other special types of players here. So do you really think, that your fun is way lowered to play this game, if your MNK would stay on level 40 and you just enjoy the game with 19 other classes, which would´ve rarely or 0 positionals?

[nelothi]

100% this! I rarely play melee but when I do, I don't bother with positionals at all, lol. I just stand behind the boss all the time, moving to the side every few seconds is exhausting. Positionals are also unfair and impossible when I play solo (FATEs, side quests, etc). But then again, that's why I'm a RDM main. :') On a side note, my Monk has been sitting at lvl 40 for years, finally I'm a bit motivated to lvl it to 90, thanks to less positionals. It actually feels a lot more fun than last time I tried it!

So you are okay with just not playing something to its potential?

damn.. thats rough.
Half the fun of MMO PVE for me is just knowing that I can improve..

Positionals on every GCD was way too much - having two buttons that have positionals is not a lot to deal with. Moving your character is not exhausting.. its a core part of every game.

The weirdest thing about monks positional changes, is that they took away positionals from their hardest hitting attack.
Snap punch and demolish are like 10% of a monks overall damage, where boot shine is around 16% on its own.

this is good for solo content - as youre not punished for not being able to get behind your target anymore, but it takes away from any feeling of "mastery" that anyone might get from hitting every positional.

So while I do hate the idea of positionals on every ability like it was.. I also get the frustration of people who want that feeling of mastery.

[Shurrikhan]

Positionals are also unfair and impossible when I play solo (FATEs, side quests, etc).

You can get every positional even when solo, even without using a Chocobo tank, True North, or Leg Sweep. It just requires sticking near to the center of the target's hitbox and hitting your skill immediately upon crossing through it.

[ssunny2008]

So while I do hate the idea of positionals on every ability like it was.. I also get the frustration of people who want that feeling of mastery.

I get your point. But still... "standing still" within MNK´s combo felt always like, i don´t know... just bad. The real flow with all the low global cooldowns, fast aesthetics, permanent swap from rear to flank to rear is what has been actually fun. At any time i had to play " rear rear rear " or so, MNK just felt boring af. And that´s what we´ve now, sadly.

Even a serious question to you... you get the frustation of MNK mains. So... would you actually be like

a) "No, MNK shouldn´t have positionals!"

or

b) "SE should bring the positionals back. I don´t mind, i can play 4 other melees with way less positionals!"

You can get every positional even when solo, even without using a Chocobo tank, True North, or Leg Sweep. It just requires sticking near to the center of the target's hitbox and hitting your skill immediately upon crossing through it.

Totally forgot to mention it. But i guess it´s going to land in the "exhausted" category.