Dark Knight Megathread

[Dingodrole]

And then, the WHM starts to Holy.

I don't see how TBN is actually weaker in raid and stronger in dungeon.
It's not rocket science that the weak point of TBN is actually multi-hit situation.

You have a pack of mob that deals heavy damage, great your TBN will pop in less than 2s, yeah it broke, then for the next 13s what do you have ? Nothing.
Meanwhile, the other tanks shines MORE for multi-hit situation because they don't have a shield, they have pure mitigation, that last no matter how long they are exposed to damage.

TBN is an amazing tool for Single Big hit, because of the massive shield it is, and the fact that applying mitigation on top it, makes the TBN even stronger. But for Multi-hit scenarios, TBN is really weak

[RLTygurr]

After some deep consideration I've amended the changes I suggested to see what people think of an abridged version.
1) TBN and Shadowbringer consume 30s of Darkside time rather than MP (or just a straight up cooldown).
2) Add an effect to Oblation where each of the DRK's weaponskills have a heal (potency is up for debate, probably like 100 or 200).
3) Bring back Dark Art's ability to enhance certain skills, and increase max dark arts stacks to 3. These enhanced skills can be used, OR a free edge/flood of shadow. This adds a bit of situational diversity.
4) Blood Weapon gives a dark arts stack upon execution and adds a 100-200 potency heal to each DRK weaponskill.

Making Dark Arts a pivotal part of maximizing DPS means smart use of TBN (which currently is a DPS loss if your timing is bad during a raid and the shield doesn't break) is critical to the class. In addition, having Blood Weapon and Oblation grant some weaponskill-based healing allows the DRK to sustain itself better (considering Abyssal Drain is the only real sustain tool it has, and that's useless outside of dungeons). Lastly, making TBN and Shadowbringer consume Darkside time (a mechanic that may as well not exist at the moment) means that you have to have to choose whether burst DPS or a shield is worth half of your maximum buff time.

Honestly I think these are realistic changes, but I have no idea if SE would ever consider making a tank class that has DPS-like mechanics that play off one another. Tbh all tanks need just a bit more complexity.

[ArthurATDayne]

To make TBN easier to maximize without making it overpowered or even messing with Mana Costs could simply involve a mere increase in duration like from 7s Duration to 8/9/10s. Now it's up longer, giving more opportunities for both Mob Packs, AOE Mechanics and Bosses to bust apart.

At the same time it'll FEEL like a huge satisfying buff, much more so than Oblation at 82, but it's still the same 25% Max HP Bubble and against anything immediate that's powerful enough to bust it apart in 1 or 2 hits player won't notice much difference except that it was up and took those hits. For longer drawn out situations where threatening damage incoming is spaced out over longer periods of time instead of immediate, TBN won't feel so wasted since it'll be up longer 8/9/10s instead of 7s.

I would rather Not tie TBN to damage skills even further than it already is by tying it with Dark Side timer being up, I rather have the ability to raise shields anytime I want, Now, Later, Whenever without having the pre-condition of using an Edge/Flood attack which requires a Target to be hit.

[Annihilism]

Would changing Abyssal Drain to a WS and making it combo of Stalwart Soul help in dungeons? Going from WAR/PLD to DRK in dungeons is such an unnerving change of pace. Some extra healing would really help.

[Crater]

...

It's a misconception that TBN is inherently weaker in multi-hit situations. What happens is the shield breaks, people start seeing full damage, and they immediately conclude that the mitigation is weaker. In reality, the mitigation is just frontloaded; TBN mitigates 100% of the first few hits, and then that averages out to a similar level of total mitigation to most other mitigation skills.

If it helps, do some quick napkin math versus the mitigation component of Holy Sheltron: Holy Sheltron takes ~22.4 seconds of auto-attacks to generate gauge, then provides 4 seconds of 32% mitigation (20% block and the additional 15% from Knight's Resolve) and 4 seconds of 20% mitigation (just the 20% block). For simplicity's sake, assume incoming damage is continuous and evenly distributed over time.

4 seconds of 32% mitigation, over a 22.4s total duration = ~5.7% overall mitigation
4 seconds of 20% mitigation, over a 22.4s total duration = ~3.6% overall mitigation
Added together, ~9.3% total mitigation.

For TBN to equal Holy Sheltron's average mitigation over time, it only needs to last 9.3% of 15 seconds each time you use it, which is only ~1.395 seconds - in your hypothetical where TBN only lasts 2 seconds, it is still offering nearly 150% the total mitigation of Holy Sheltron!

Now, Holy Sheltron also has a healing component to consider - but at the same time, TBN rarely breaks in 2 seconds even on large dungeon pulls. Anecdotally, I'd say the average TBN stays alive for 3~4 seconds when paired properly with other mitigation sources (on average; obviously sometimes it pops almost immediately, and sometimes it lingers around for 6s or very nearly doesn't break at all).


Its disadvantages are in fact only really apparent when used against heavy, single-hit tankbusters. In those situations, you're stacking up TBN's shield against the full effect of Holy Sheltron's 32% mitigation plus its 1000p HoT, which is a situation where TBN will always come out the loser, and you can't just hit TBN on cooldown because there almost certainly isn't going to be another tankbuster in exactly 15 seconds. When you're free to make use of TBN's shorter cooldown, the skill is competitive with the other tanks' equivalents. When you're comparing it on a per-use basis against attacks that come 25s or more apart and the lower cooldown doesn't help you, it loses every time.

[Shurrikhan]

If it's possible to change DRK such that using TBN at every reasonable opportunity, instead of only once per 60 seconds (or as close to 'once per 60 seconds' as possible), is no longer a DPS loss, then we've solved DRK's primary issue with mitigation.
...
Add an 8-10 second cooldown to Edge/Flood, and increase potency to compensate for lack of raid buffs: This would effectively limit DRK to two uses of Edge per buff window (most buffs being 15s in duration), meaning that any other MP they generate can be used elsewhere with no DPS loss.

Sorry, Crater, on phone atm, but didn't want to have to slowly backspace through all but the relevant text, as Reply with Quote would otherwise force.

This seems one of the fairest takes I've seen on here of late.

I have to wonder, though, why having more than two edges under buffs would be such an issue, let alone warrant clunk like a 10s CD on Edge/Flood. If we don't want DRK to so obviously or rigidly play off 60s raid windows, wouldn't the far simpler solution be to just desync its CDs from them and increase the MP cost of Edge/Flood (and up generation proportionately) as to decrease the amount of time (in MP) that can be banked for raid windows?

[WhyAmIHere]

I’d prefer to see a longer range of data vs the current two weeks since early access, when everyone is still adapting to changes and dealing with their kit changes.

A down the road sample of data, excluding say, the 1st month of Endwalker release, is likely to be more accurate, I feel.

my point is this: Holy Shelltron, Clemency, Equilibrium, Bloodwhetting / Nascent Flash, Thrill of Battle: All of this I'd argue are more potent heals than Heart of Corundum and Aurora, and certainly more than soul eater on a single hit / abyssal drain. This is of course ignoring soul eater over time, since *what else are you doing on DRK?*

Sure once the players are more at ease and familiar with their jobs, these numbers are more than likely to change. But I dont see the general trend of PLD/WAR having more sustain than GNB/DRK changing without SE tweaking potencies.

[jetfire117]

Would changing Abyssal Drain to a WS and making it combo of Stalwart Soul help in dungeons? Going from WAR/PLD to DRK in dungeons is such an unnerving change of pace. Some extra healing would really help.

Absolutely. And it also wouldn't make it literally useless. I love it because it's one of the few remaining iconic DRK skills, but it was fire and forget skill in shadowbringers with a bad heal. Now it's even worse because it shares a cast with Carve n Spit. The heal it gives during a big pull is even sadder.

[Dracosavarian]

my point is this: Holy Shelltron, Clemency, Equilibrium, Bloodwhetting / Nascent Flash, Thrill of Battle: All of this I'd argue are more potent heals than Heart of Corundum and Aurora, and certainly more than soul eater on a single hit / abyssal drain. This is of course ignoring soul eater over time, since *what else are you doing on DRK?*

Sure once the players are more at ease and familiar with their jobs, these numbers are more than likely to change. But I dont see the general trend of PLD/WAR having more sustain than GNB/DRK changing without SE tweaking potencies.

My issue with the data posted is that at best, it’s unreliable. That is also excluding the factor of having just two weeks of early access with Endwalker and folks adapting to their kit.

If we want true, accurate, measured data, then we need a strict test with controls set in place where the only variable is the jobs themselves. I doubt we will ever get that though.

This is why I dislike when folks throw out mass charts from aggregate data over a wide variety of scenarios and factors with no measure of controls and elimination of variables that would mask the truth of the data one seeks. I honestly feel it obfuscates more than it seeks to illuminate.


All of that having been said thus…

Drk has two sources of Sustain. If single target now, might as well only be one. Souleater. Abyssal Drain is only really good for multiple targets or trying to eke out whatever precious few seconds one has before activating their hated invuln if their healers are down.

Personally, due to HoC, I would consider Gunbreaker to be above Drk in sustain by comparison, even with the above data saying otherwise. Hence, my statement on seeking a sample down the road which might be more accurate.


Food for thought though. This kind of goes alone the lines of what are you saying about having only two tools.

But, how sad is it that if Drk wants to sustain, that in wall to wall pulls, they have to rely on Souleater and single target combo chains, as their strongest source of it to help offset healer stress, whereas in comparison with the other tanks, that isn’t even necessary on their end so much.

[Crater]

I have to wonder, though, why having more than two edges under buffs would be such an issue, let alone warrant clunk like a 10s CD on Edge/Flood. If we don't want DRK to so obviously or rigidly play off 60s raid windows, wouldn't the far simpler solution be to just desync its CDs from them and increase the MP cost of Edge/Flood (and up generation proportionately) as to decrease the amount of time (in MP) that can be banked for raid windows?

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any reason why that wouldn't also be a fine solution, in principle. To me, I think it would be a lot more simple to extend the Edge cooldown since that would only require changing one skill, rather than changing the MP cost and also having to change the MP gain on Blood Weapon, Delirium, Syphon Strike, and Stalwart Soul, keeping in mind that natural regeneration is probably set at 200/tick - but as long as it accomplished the end goal of leaving DRK free to use TBN at will without losing DPS, changing MP costs/generation wouldn't bother me.