[ENDWALKER SPOILER!] On Zenos

[Listrella]

Well at least he's been dealt with now, you won't have to put up with him in the story going forward. I thought it was okay myself, they needed to resolve the zenos story somehow.

[Bright-Flower]

The way I interpreted it is that the options you get allow you to, for your character, accept or deny it.

The first option is agreeing with him and acknowedging it.

The second 'I don't care what you think but you're too dangerous to let you go free'

The third 'omg stfu I am so tired of your crap.'

And if you pick anything but the first Zenos is just projecting onto you.

[Raiya]

I've been reading some stuff since the end of Endwalker and I don't think this is the last of Zenos per se. Yeah he's physically dead for sure this time but this is the same guy who has survived death once before for an unknown inexplicable reason which has never actually been explained.
Been thinking about some things and there might be a reason why we'll see him yet again: He IS a sundered shard of Azem.... from the 13th.
There's several reason I'm starting to think of this but only because of one point in the Endwalker story which seems to stand out noticably and seems to run counter to what was previously established: During the Garlemald campaign as a way to stall and try and get your attention he kicks you out of your body with Fandaniels assistance with the help of a mindjack machine from that scientist in Ala Mhigo. He then takes off and has you chase after him in a Garlean's body. This actually runs counter to an earlier part of Shadowbringers: Elidibus in Ardberts body - he was only able to take control of that corpse AFTER Ardbert had rejoined with ourselves and hence severing his connection with his old body. It should NOT have been possible for Zenos to actually do that since Elidibus was an Unsundered and even HE couldnt possess that corpse. The only one reason Zenos could do so without being blocked was because he's a fragment of us and the protection on our physical body would mistake him for us.
There's some tidbits and hints to actually back this up

*He's been stated to be some sort of Garlean Test Subject but it was never clearly defined as to what beyond his dealings with the resonance project. What if Emet had been using him in a veiled experiment to see if a soul from the 13th could be salvaged? After all it's the ONE shard that was left in an unfit state and to fully restore the world SOMETHING would have needed to be done at some point to repair that shard.
*Daddy dearest paid him no time in his youth and his mother supposedly sickened and died shortly after his birth. Seems straightforward enough but what if the real Zenos actually died along with his mother during birth and Emet decided to take advantage to use the body to see if it could hold or restore a soul shard of someone from the void?
*He doesn't have the echo BUT at the same time noone was aware of having this until they're presented with a vision of the final days.
*He posesses memories of the final days that have plagued his dreams, by all accounts he SHOULD have an echo but doesnt which could be a possible side effect of having a Garlean Body.
*Someone with a weaker soul might stand out on the source alright if they were a magic user. However if they're GARLEAN this would certainly be easily missed.
*He's related to Solus aka Emet aka Hades who just so happens to be a master in matters of the soul and it would have NOT been out of hand if he had been up to something, the man has a penchant for plotting every moment of every day after all....
*He gets renamed viator during Endwalker which others have noted the obvious "exile" meaning it's been noted as "traveller or Wanderer" as well? That's rather telling there.
*He calls himself a "dark counterpart" to us. Wouldn't seem much at first glance but if he was from the void originally then it would CERTAINLY be very relevant.
*He's been thought of as flat or boring character however what if there's a subtle reason for it: he was flat because he was MISSING something the entire time?
*He survived a death he shouldn't normally have: The Resonance was thought of as a cause but what if the real reason was because he was originally a denizen of the void?
*He become's a reaper in Endwalker and there seemingly is a reason for this beyond just the simple new job explanation and that it was one way for Garleans to be able to defend themselves.
*He possessed our body when it was alluded to that this should not be possible by him and was not even possible for Elidibus an unsudered to possess Ardberts before a certain point..
*At some point we will have to travel to the void as out of all the places right now that be near the top the list of thing's that would need fixing it's DEFINATELY there. If Zenos turn's out to have been originally a denizen of that place well he'd certainly make for the most interesting companion since the void would just be FULL of ravenous murderous soul eating monsters needing a reaping.
*A tour of the void would certainly need an established character and if Zenos fills the spot as an original denizen his past behaviour of looking for things to fight would fit something from there.
*It would NOT be out of hand to be a sheer irony factor that the one person who just persistently and doggedly hounded us for 3 expansions was as stubborn as we were because they were a FRAGMENT of us.

There's probably more but some have said the devs are being coy about Zenos so I certainly think there could be more of him. He's had his moment twice now and the 2nd time he had to earn his way into getting his rematch. Since he can't seem to beat us he might as well join us and all that...

[QT_Melon]

I've been reading some stuff since the end of Endwalker and I don't think this is the last of Zenos per se. Yeah he's physically dead for sure this time but this is the same guy who has survived death once before for an unknown inexplicable reason which has never actually been explained.
Been thinking about some things and there might be a reason why we'll see him yet again: He IS a sundered shard of Azem.... from the 13th.

Hmm. Big part of me says "no" however upon thinking about it.

The biggest reason being is that Emet has the ability to see souls. He would definitely recognize the soul of his friend. However, that being said. It's possible he left out the detail about him IF Zenos was an experiment and died before that part came into play. It does beg the question how he brought over the soul to our realm.

Also I don't think there was a big definitive answer as to what happened to our counterpart on the 13th. People were theorizing that Unukalhai may have been our counterpart. However, believe that was not the case since the Role quest line. (sorry was still editing but had to go AFK).

[Raiya]

Hmm. Big part of me says "no" however upon thinking about it.

The biggest reason being is that Emet has the ability to see souls. He would definitely recognize the soul of his friend. However, that being said. It's possible he left out the detail about him IF Zenos was an experiment and died before that part came into play. It does beg the question how he brought over the soul to our realm.

Also I don't think there was a big definitive answer as to what happened to our counterpart on the 13th. People were theorizing that Unukalhai may have been our counterpart.

Unukalhai was originally theorised to be a fragment of us but the last quests we got with him strongly hint at him being a sundered fragment of ANOTHER person from the First. That would eliminate him since Ardbert was our fragment and is now part of our soul. As for how he could get said soul over from the void? Mhach already had that solved they literally powered their civilization by stuffing voidsent into glorified batteries to power their things and if Emet had a hand in it during the 6th calamity then there's your answer as to how he'd have the knowledge. Hasnt been the first time someone's summoned someone from the void either. Could have been a simple case of someone summoning a voidsent who just happened to have Azems soul fragment and happened to run into Solus and he decided to capture it for a later project.

[Alleo]

Zenos being a shard of Azem cant be happening since Hythlo saw him on the moon and commented on seeing Fandaniels soul and then mentioned that there is a second one with him that he does not recognize but who is very dangerous. Of course theoretically they could have lied to us at that moment but for what reason? Especially since there is a very high chance that he is now staying death.

And if he was Azems soul shard wouldnt he already have the abilitily to awaken to the echo?

IMO the point with his dreams might have been a possible plot point that simply got dropped because it did not fit the expansion.

[QT_Melon]

Zenos being a shard of Azem cant be happening since Hythlo saw him on the moon and commented on seeing Fandaniels soul and then mentioned that there is a second one with him that he does not recognize but who is very dangerous. Of course theoretically they could have lied to us at that moment but for what reason? Especially since there is a very high chance that he is now staying death.

And if he was Azems soul shard wouldnt he already have the abilitily to awaken to the echo?

IMO the point with his dreams might have been a possible plot point that simply got dropped because it did not fit the expansion.

Thank you for reminding me about Hythlodaeus ...I knew I remembered someone mentioning they couldn't recognize him soul-wise but playing in the wee hours to get on from Lobby 2002 extreme some of this wasn't coming up to mind immediately

However, I don't think they may entirely drop that plot point. I mean the other thing that was brought up...

Were the theories of what happens to the soul upon death which we only got a taste of theories from Sharlayan. We can say Zenos is dead but still can say it's not the entire end for him which might be even worse since we don't have Hydaelyn in the aetherial sea. Even then, we already saw the weird resurrection that wasn't entirely explained why he was able to come back. Then we do have the fact that the Ascians that were unsundered had the ability to restore memories to the ones that were. Perhaps the experiment was that Emet wanted to create a way for those base memories to return even after death with less of their intervention...The fact that Zenos still had memories of the Final days may have made him more viable as a test subject.

[Bhearil]

Personally I agree with the Wol and Zenos mirror analogy. It doesnt not mean they are the same but they are twisted reflections of each other. On that sense no one understand them better than the other

Zenos reflects the darkest parts of the WoL that are mentioned on the DRK quests. They both enjoy the thrill of battle, the challenge to reach even higher, but the reasoning behind is not the same, because Zenos seeks only his own enjoyment, while the WoL even if part of them enjoy the fight itself they also have other reasons to do so and find their own satisfaction in other things like friendship, curiosity (Venat and the Wol are stated to have a huge curiosity) etc.

To Zenos he eventually comes to the realization that despite them being the same, the Wol is generally satisfied with their life instead of feeling dull and bored most of their time, so they not desperate like him for a rematch, specially when the WoL is focusing on the End of Days and Zenos is at most an annoyance. So he decides to help him out for several reasons:

Once the main problem is fixed the Wol wont have no reason to not fight him and if they still refuse he will acept his friend decision (Zenos DO have a sense of honor albeit twisted)
He finally look at himself and realizes how empty his existence is and on a sense he ENVIES the WoL because despite their power they found their place in life. The Wol has lots of things that give them pleasure while he only has a fleeting one.

Their final fight is not a combat but a dialog about their ways of life, powering both to the limit with the power of dynamis.

After the fight Zenos is defeated and feels vexed he still lost meaning that his way of life was wrong, yet he acepts it and asks the WoL about theirs. The teleporter was probably Zenos final act to his only friend because unlike him THEY did have things to do and enjoy their remaining life. It wasnt the place for them to die moreso when winning their clash of ideals

Zenos reflects the darkest parts of the WoL persona, parts that are usually supressed due to their morality (but still there like the DRK quests clearly show), while the WoL to Zenos eventually becomes what he could have became himself if instead of being isolated his entire life he found companions and learned to live

Their dinamic to me looks a lot like the relationship between Drizzt Do'Urden and Artemis Entreri

[Loggos]

Personally I agree with the Wol and Zenos mirror analogy. It doesnt not mean they are the same but they are twisted reflections of each other. On that sense no one understand them better than the other

Zenos reflects the darkest parts of the WoL that are mentioned on the DRK quests. They both enjoy the thrill of battle, the challenge to reach even higher, but the reasoning behind is not the same, because Zenos seeks only his own enjoyment, while the WoL even if part of them enjoy the fight itself they also have other reasons to do so and find their own satisfaction in other things like friendship, curiosity (Venat and the Wol are stated to have a huge curiosity) etc.

To Zenos he eventually comes to the realization that despite them being the same, the Wol is generally satisfied with their life instead of feeling dull and bored most of their time, so they not desperate like him for a rematch, specially when the WoL is focusing on the End of Days and Zenos is at most an annoyance. So he decides to help him out for several reasons:

Once the main problem is fixed the Wol wont have no reason to not fight him and if they still refuse he will acept his friend decision (Zenos DO have a sense of honor albeit twisted)
He finally look at himself and realizes how empty his existence is and on a sense he ENVIES the WoL because despite their power they found their place in life. The Wol has lots of things that give them pleasure while he only has a fleeting one.

Their final fight is not a combat but a dialog about their ways of life, powering both to the limit with the power of dynamis.

After the fight Zenos is defeated and feels vexed he still lost meaning that his way of life was wrong, yet he acepts it and asks the WoL about theirs. The teleporter was probably Zenos final act to his only friend because unlike him THEY did have things to do and enjoy their remaining life. It wasnt the place for them to die moreso when winning their clash of ideals

Zenos reflects the darkest parts of the WoL persona, parts that are usually supressed due to their morality (but still there like the DRK quests clearly show), while the WoL to Zenos eventually becomes what he could have became himself if instead of being isolated his entire life he found companions and learned to live

Their dinamic to me looks a lot like the relationship between Drizzt Do'Urden and Artemis Entreri

I would argue that this analogy is not objective though. Like I said, it's completely fair if people consider their own WoL as a mirror to Zenos but from a narrative point of view I really don't think that this is The interpretation of their relationship.

This is why I disagree when you say "Once the main problem is fixed the Wol wont have no reason to not fight him.". I think people who don't like him have plenty of reasons not to fight him, ever.
For example because we don't plan to give him the only thing he wants, because he is so cruel that we don't even want to give him any of the attention that he craves etc. (There are more examples in this thread.)

Again, I don't meant to say at all that this perspective is the "correct" interpretation either. I just think, as people said before me, the mirror as an objective analogy doesn't really work for blank-slate characters. It's more for characters the story completely defines for you.

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Lastly, I disagree with the Darkknight analogy. The themes of the DRK quest are completely different and entirely unrelated to Zenos' philosophy in my eyes.

(Sorry for the wall of text but the DRK quests, esp. the first one, are my favourite job quests, haha. So I'm kinda emotionally invested in them. orz

I'll put it behind the spoiler safety, not because it spoils anything, but to prevent the post from being so obnoxiously long, lol.)

Zenos is the embodiment of the pure lust for battle (and blood) itself.
(And I put lust in italics here because I think this is not the same as the art of the battle, which is the kind of philosophy I have chosen for my own WoL. But that is just my personal perspective.)


The motivation of the DRK is wrath because of injustice. They are the counterpart to the shining Paladin who embodies purity, chivalry and a "noble" mind ("" because what is noble can also be subjective) while protecting the innocent and delivering justice.

The DRK has the same aims but instead of choosing a shining path they decide to use their dark emotions as a form of strength.
However, the whole resolution of the darknight quest (with Sidurgu) is that just succumbing to your wrath mindlessly is not the true way of the DRK. He actually has to learn to manage his dark emotions in a healthy way for them to be a true source of strength. Like this he can finally use his justified anger as a source for righteous actions.

Healthy management of emotions and obsession doesn't really seem to be Zenos' defining trait. But according to the DRK master of Sidurgu this is crucial to the darknight. Iirc in the end this internal state is their "abyss" they have been looking for so long.


And the first DRK quest, during which you face your own shadow, also has nothing to do with Zenos' philosophy. It's more about mental health and trauma.
It rightfully asks the question how your WoL could even possibly process all the despair and cruelty they have to witness and endure.
Up to that point they have surpressed all the negative effects caused by constantly fighting for everyone and your unconsciousness is trying to send you the message that you need to draw some lines and boundaries. Because not even you can carry the weight of everything and everyone.

Yes, aesthetically the DRK might resemble Zenos because of their darkness and their tendency do fight a lot less "nobly", less "honourably" and way bloodier/gorier than say a paladin because their fighting is guided by their wrath. But their reasons, their motives and the outcome they aspire are a total 180° from Zenos.

Even their darkness itself is completely different from his.
Zenos doesn't even seem to feel wrath, he just feels boredom and a total disregard for any life whereas for the DRK wrath is the central expression of their darkness.

Surely darkknights also enjoy the battle in general (but I'd say that for almost every, well, battle class) and they probably get more satisfaction from stomping someone who causes great injustice and suffering than your average "noble" paladin.
But ultimately, unlike Zenos they don't just fight for the sake of the battle at all costs.
(@MirronTulaxia said it very well (albeit about the WoL in general but I think it applies here, as well) with it being "a far cry from orchestrating mass destruction for the sake of one".)
They fight for others. They just don't do it on a white horse with a halo above their head.

[Alleo]

After the fight Zenos is defeated and feels vexed he still lost meaning that his way of life was wrong, yet he acepts it and asks the WoL about theirs. The teleporter was probably Zenos final act to his only friend because unlike him THEY did have things to do and enjoy their remaining life. It wasnt the place for them to die moreso when winning their clash of ideals

Meteion did say that we just have to wish to see our friends and Dynamis would make that happen. For me it makes a bit more sense that after remembering our travel with them we just simply wished to go to them but could not get up. Thus Dynamis answered our wish by giving us our device back.