Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

[Izscha]

MSQ dungeons should never have been a single instance. All they had to do was split it up into 4 different dungeons, put Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 in the title and then just add a spawn point and an exit after different boss fights then make a quest that unlocks them in order.

Instead they just got lazy made the cs unskippable and bribed the players but they know this.

To me looking at how those works, you dont need to have more than 1 ppl for those, just make it solo content so you can watch / skip it and you're done with it.
The only thing in this stuff that needs more than 1 person is the canon swap thing in the first one, but that's it and it could be changed easily.
I do not get why you need this to be group content but hey it's back to ARR i'm pretty sure they did not expect it to turn out this way.

[Floortank]

I mean, some people like huffing paint humes, too. Doesn't mean they are good.

People didn't leave WoW because of it's content. They left due to the attitude of the devs and their philosophy of "we'll fix it later". Burdening the game with countless half ass systems. Again, dungeons aren't the only method to get tomes.

"it would kill people's ability to farm tomestones effectively". Ya see, it isn't even about whether or not the content itself is good. Just about how efficiently someone can farm tomestones.

They're not going to change the tomestone format and they're not going to do anything to change the dungeons that would slow down queues. That's all completely parallel to whether you think the content is good or bad. If you happen to think the type of content that fits in the parameters of an efficient tomestone grind that anyone can do is bad, that's perfectly OK. But it's unfortunate for you, because it's not going to change.

I happen to enjoy doing my rotation and testing my abilities with various Jobs against different bosses and I think it's rather different from huffing paint fumes, because I'm not pining for content that killed the world's largest MMO under the delusion that those unflushed gems they called dungeons were good. They were "so good" people would ragequit if even one person didn't know what to do, and a 30 or 40 minute run could be guaranteed if no one ragequit, and none of that time spent lost was particularly fun. You just followed the person who knew what to do. Wow, great fun, such exploration.

[Shurrikhan]

I see a lot of people wanting difficult dungeons, but no timers to avoid the "toxicity WoW has".

Yeah, that hasn't made a whole lot of sense to me.
___________________________

Tangent:

Honestly, I'd be fine with having no timers (though it'd probably normalize at least as "problematic" of occurences in its place, as noted below), but let's be clear, timers don't cause toxicity.

Toxicity generally comes from (A) reward conflicts (mostly from dailies or Valor farms not properly listing themselves as Valor farms, to much the effect of a progression runner joining a mount farm) and (B) people signing up for things they aren't prepared for.

Background info: Missing a timer in WoW isn't all or nothing. You still get the loot, just at the smallest possible increment of item level lost, in order to avoid making overtimed banging-heads-repeatedly-against-walls runs what is optimal for gear progression. That limitation, to keep runs within roughly some 40 minutes' is there to keep far less player-friendly practices from being optimal.

The player still gets Achievement points even after the timer has zeroed; the bonus merely decreases gradually with overtime. Again, it's quite fair, and the behaviors it entices are more player-friendly than the alternatives.

If one is having issues with timers, it's because they and/or their party are attempting something far above your comfort zone and/or are having a particularly bad day. If one just takes it easy and enjoys the runs and the process, itself, of progression instead of trying to get into groups well above their level of preparation or trying to carry those who are likewise trying to cut corners... voila, there's very little toxicity.

(Personally, I enjoy carrying from time to time, especially when trying out random meme-builds or just goofing around before bed, but I'm not about to do that as a means of steady progression; if I get lucky and replace my worst slot, cool, but if not, I'm still cool with just derping out in some 10s.)

If people just take their role and responsibilities decently seriously, and themselves and their gear-per-minute a bit less so, and they'd quickly find that timers are damn near irrelevant for anything but guiding players towards runs that, on average, avoid crossing a certain threshold into tedium.

Here's the issue: especially in FF14, with how streamlined mobility and healing/tanking is, dungeons are practically impossible to make challenging without one.

I get where you're coming from, but the "streamlining" of tanking and healing has next to zero impact on possible dungeon designs. It's no done deal, even without timers.

Should we have them? If those dungeons end up with any unique or progressive rewards, then yeah, probably. But few people are even asking for those kinds of rewards from harder dungeons, and without those them, there's no need to constrain incentive for particularly tiresome runs.

In terms of (responding to) complexity, the only gameplay that would affect is that (A) you have fewer reason to push mitigation forward to allow for your SCH to DoT and Bane, etc., and (B) DPS are sooner free to focus target adds worth focus targeting. That's... so, so small a section of gameplay compared to any and all other possibilities. There's plenty of room for complexity in future dungeons; their average run times those who'd regularly run them would just need to have commensurate reward if placed on any roulette alongside other, more faceroll dungeons (or, the way roulettes, themselves, give their rewards would have to change).

[Michieltjuhh]

Your entire post is filled with fair and valid arguments so there's really not much to comment on but I do want to touch on this particular above line.
Rereading that particular section IMO it just wasn't articulated that well.
You didn't differentiate yourself from the group you were referencing in the original post and you reinforced your point with "timers" which I still don't know exactly what you're talking about.
Sorry I jumped to an assumption but with the rest of your original post it was more likely leaning to one side rather than the other.

Edit: I think the "timers" you're talking about are the ones in WoW that are used for certain content. I don't play WoW and it's definitely not something I've seen brought up particularly in this discussion but I do remember them existing.
IMO though if anyone thinks timers are what made WoW toxic they have other issues going on.

Absolutely no problem. I ended up stumbling upon the 3000 word limit (both times now) so I had to cut it all down a bit which reading back has lead to some parts being rather vague.

I read a few posts in the thread regarding the timed dungeons WoW offers. Essentially, it gives you a short timer in which you have to succeed the dungeon in order to get the rewards. This started with a so called 'challenge mode' for dungeons, which was just the same dungeon scaled up a bit while itemlevel was scaled down, and fulfilling the requirements within a certain timer (kill all bosses and a certain amount of trash mobs) would give you some cool glamour. An example could be Aurum Vale, but higher scaling, more boss and trash abilities, the need to kill a few extra mobs at the start and a timer of 15 minutes to clear it all. Due to the nature of the challenge this lead to heavy boosting, and those that did try it themselves in pugs found that people got agitated if a mistake lead to failing the timer.

They dialed this dungeon style up to 11 in more recent expansions by adding a system called mythic+, where dungeons have infinite scaling based on the difficulty level you set them on including extra modifiers, with the same timed system being in place and there being significantly more rewards including high quality gear, making it viable endgame next to raiding. Pugging mythic+ is what many consider one of the most toxic experiences.

I'd still love either to be added to the game, since it adds to the need of doing mechanics and your role at the same time similar to Savage/Ultimate enrage timers. It also allows for them to add extra mechanics to a dungeon without altering the original version.

[Nethereal]

I ended up stumbling upon the 3000 word limit (both times now) so I had to cut it all down a bit which reading back has lead to some parts being rather vague.

Copy it all to a notepad, replace it with something inside 3000 word limit, edit your post directly after with no character limit.

[FoxyAreku]

Dungeons have lacked substance since 2.0, they're just so scared to stray from the '3 bosses in a straight line path' formula for some reason when there's so much more they could do with them.

Really wish it would change, it's my biggest gripe with the game. Even when I played years ago dungeons were always my least favorite form of content to take part in because of this. They're just all so samey and bad.

For all the flack WoW gets lately, it's a good game to look at for creative dungeon design. Well placed multiple paths, things that change between runs of the same dungeon, differing boss orders, and even puzzles in some dungeons. Hopefully someday the 14 dungeon team will be half as creative.

I happen to enjoy doing my rotation and testing my abilities with various Jobs against different bosses and I think it's rather different from huffing paint fumes, because I'm not pining for content that killed the world's largest MMO under the delusion that those unflushed gems they called dungeons were good. They were "so good" people would ragequit if even one person didn't know what to do, and a 30 or 40 minute run could be guaranteed if no one ragequit, and none of that time spent lost was particularly fun. You just followed the person who knew what to do. Wow, great fun, such exploration.

Literally never seen anyone ragequit over another 'not knowing what to do' in my 10 years of WoW/MMOs. Your experience isn't everyone's. Sorry you apparently encountered bad eggs.

[Sclair0]

I don't mind dungeons, particularly story dungeons, having a more linear setpiece style design to them. But I do agree they are lacking in mechanical substance and difficulty.

If they ever bring optional dungeons back I'd love fewer of them, but harder in difficulty. I know I'm not the only one who's always wanted extreme dungeon content.

[KittyKet]

I'm pretty sure they peaked with Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Hard) because omg that was all so messed up. And when I discovered that the story continues with POD, I fangirl screamed. It would be amazing to have more dungeons like that.

[Commander_Justitia]

For all the flack WoW gets lately, it's a good game to look at for creative dungeon design. Well placed multiple paths, things that change between runs of the same dungeon, differing boss orders, and even puzzles in some dungeons. Hopefully someday the 14 dungeon team will be half as creative.

This so much. I hoped ff14 would take the same path at some point in the past, but it doesn't seem like they will. There is so much potential for replayability if they just add an achievement for every dungeon if you beat it a certain more difficult way for example, similar how WoW has those achievements for almost every raid and dungeon.

When I first played matoyas relict, I kinda was surprised at the start and hoped it would be a RNG element what path you get first, which would lead to different bosses, so each time you get the dungeon you would have a different experience, similar how T2 (Binding Coil 2nd Turn) was and how it buffed the endboss differently, but it was not like that ofc, its just linear again.

The artistic value of a dungeon is usually high, the models look good, the environment is atmospheric, I just wish we had more time looking at it and wish that the meta of masspulling is changing to something more fun.
I think dungeons lack difficulty, it is just too low for most of them, especially if synced down. There are too many people who don't know how to use aoe abilities at lvl 70-80, because they don't need to learn it anyway, because the dungeon is just too easy. A bit challenge and more importance to cc and introducing meaningful dungeon specific mechanics would be a welcome change. E.G. BLM and Healer have sleep, but nobody ofc uses it because we never even need it or even worse, they make all mobs in a dungeon cc immune for some reason... It is like the dungeon devs don't even want us to use cc, it is developing against each other.

[Kaurhz]

Before: Please give more creative dungeons with some difficult mechanics.

After: OMG stop giving me this dungeon it takes too long and people can't do it.