Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

[SamsaraTrickstar]

It pays the bills in a game where story line dungeons are not optional content for players who never want to see an extreme trial or savage raid.

Why this argument comes time and time? No one say harder dungeons need to be in place of easy ones but as an additional content.

[BaconBits]

Why this argument comes time and time? No one say harder dungeons need to be in place of easy ones but as an additional content.

No no no, don't you know you're not allowed to ask for any form of challenging 4-man content outside of Deep Dungeons? Now be a good boy and run the same hallway simulator 8 years in the making at minimum ilvl, since you want a challenge so badly.

[Shurrikhan]

No no no, don't you know you're not allowed to ask for any form of challenging 4-man content outside of Deep Dungeons? Now be a good boy and run the same hallway simulator 8 years in the making at minimum ilvl, since you want a challenge so badly.

What, most dungeons can still be fairly easily tank-healer undermanned-duoed at minimum ilvl, only really adding length, not challenge? Well... get worse at the game!

Honestly, it's all your fault for engaging with the mechanics, for this silly "wanting to get better." Didn't you know this game is only about the story? (Until reaching Savage content and above, that is, at which point we'd better not hear of a single decision made for aesthetics or character identity.)

[Shurrikhan]

Can't speak for WoW but ESO dungeons have a very real threat of dying even on the easiest of dungeons, including the first one if players aren't competent to some degree.

WoW's set-difficulty dungeons (Normal, Heroic) function similarly to XIV's except in that trash has (increasingly ignorable) mechanics (minus the potential one-shots from being knocked off platforms, etc.) largely just because there's no ilvl cap.

They're roflstomp speedruns once roflstomp overgeared, and none too difficult even at minimum item level. They do at least have 2-5 mechanics per trash mob, though, instead of... at most a special that one can hardly tell apart from the autos and maybe a couple marked "AoE will go here" attacks, so even the mild difficulty sometimes allows for more engagement. There's actual reason to deliberately stun/silence (rather than as just a consequence of Holy spam), displace, focus target, bait, etc.

The real difference is just that WoW dungeons have damn near infinite difficulty levels, so you can play to the degree of difficulty you want even as you gear up.

The dreaded "RaiderIO" (which hasn't been a thing, at least in the sense of some external tool "judging" players, for a while now) was literally just one's total relevant achievement score across the expansion's dungeons; people tended not to invite people to dungeons more than 2 levels above your current clear for that dungeon or your average, for much the same reason one might in XIV ask if one has done any Savage before inviting someone to the first Savage raid in a given tier.

the issue in WoW M+ isnt the raider io is the "spec-ism", is just A tank B/C healers X/Y/Z dps , if u arent those GL getting an invite ....

I played almost solely non-meta specs and would inform the party leader of my spec when applying. I still got invited just fine. Prot Warrior at its worst, Arms, Enhance, Demonology, Survival, Feral, Subtlety, Arcane, Holy Priest, etc., etc. -- they all could get invites up to the reward cap (+15) with little issue.

[Warlyx]

WoW mythic plus dungs is the same race down the halls BUT with a timer. The faster ye goes the better the chase of a 3 chest at the end! Heroic and Mythic dont give the same gear as Mplus so people dont care for them. Enjoy being judged by addons like Raider.IO that gatekeeps the higher key runs also.

Raider io is no different than ilvl , plus 4 man content is easy to form , raider io NEVER goes down even if u fail a dungeon there is no -100 points , it can only go up...so with time and patience u can get your score is Rio a perfect system? far from it

the issue in WoW M+ isnt the raider io is the "spec-ism" , is just A tank B/C healers X/Y/Z dps , if u arent those GL getting an invite ....


FFXIV 4 man needs some love , and CHALLENGING OPTIONAL CONTENT..........is gasp OPTIONAL......i dont see any ffxiv player disliking ULTIMATES...so why the hate for 4 man challenging content?

[Shurrikhan]

It pays the bills in a game where story line dungeons are not optional content for players who never want to see an extreme trial or savage raid.

Yes, it really pays the bills to not include a simple toggle by which to allow dungeons to be actual content, rather than sprint-by scenery, for more than just a third of the playerbase.

Just look at all the expense that switch would have cost, and for just the measely revitalization of nearly half the game's would-be content!

[Kacho_Nacho]

But super casuals will complain "ItS tOo HaRd, uNsUb"

No need to be insulting. In fact, I doubt super casual players have SE's ear more than any other group.

[Shurrikhan]

No need to be insulting. In fact, I doubt super casual players have SE's ear more than any other group.

That doesn't much matter so long as they have the dev's focus, by errant perception ("more than 2 dps spells on a healer is 'too hard'") or not.

If all other groups' otherwise beneficial opportunities are prevented to maintain some seemingly mutually-exclusive service the devs believe they are providing to some particular group -- especially when those prevented opportunities are especially design-efficient (as simply having more than a single difficulty setting would be) -- that's problem enough.

[Lauront]

Raider io is no different than ilvl , plus 4 man content is easy to form , raider io NEVER goes down even if u fail a dungeon there is no -100 points , it can only go up...so with time and patience u can get your score is Rio a perfect system? far from it

the issue in WoW M+ isnt the raider io is the "spec-ism" , is just A tank B/C healers X/Y/Z dps , if u arent those GL getting an invite ....


FFXIV 4 man needs some love , and CHALLENGING OPTIONAL CONTENT..........is gasp OPTIONAL......i dont see any ffxiv player disliking ULTIMATES...so why the hate for 4 man challenging content?

Yoshi's response here does give me some hope that something like this will come in the future. Guess we'll know post-6.0 release. I'd greatly welcome the addition of such content.

WoW's set-difficulty dungeons (Normal, Heroic) function similarly to XIV's except in that trash has (increasingly ignorable) mechanics (minus the potential one-shots from being knocked off platforms, etc.) largely just because there's no ilvl cap.

They're roflstomp speedruns once roflstomp overgeared, and none too difficult even at minimum item level. They do at least have 2-5 mechanics per trash mob, though, instead of... at most a special that one can hardly tell apart from the autos and maybe a couple marked "AoE will go here" attacks, so even the mild difficulty sometimes allows for more engagement. There's actual reason to deliberately stun/silence (rather than as just a consequence of Holy spam), displace, focus target, bait, etc.

The real difference is just that WoW dungeons have damn near infinite difficulty levels, so you can play to the degree of difficulty you want even as you gear up.

The dreaded "RaiderIO" (which hasn't been a thing, at least in the sense of some external tool "judging" players, for a while now) was literally just one's total relevant achievement score across the expansion's dungeons; people tended not to invite people to dungeons more than 2 levels above your current clear for that dungeon or your average, for much the same reason one might in XIV ask if one has done any Savage before inviting someone to the first Savage raid in a given tier.



I played almost solely non-meta specs and would inform the party leader of my spec when applying. I still got invited just fine. Prot Warrior at its worst, Arms, Enhance, Demonology, Survival, Feral, Subtlety, Arcane, Holy Priest, etc., etc. -- they all could get invites up to the reward cap (+15) with little issue.

Specs are honestly one of those things I miss from WoW. They're great for cases where you don't have enough of a change in abilities or playstyle to justify adding a whole new class, but want refinements on an existing class's abilities - although granted they can diverge significantly.

If all other groups' otherwise beneficial opportunities are prevented to maintain some seemingly mutually-exclusive service the devs believe they providing to some particular group -- especially when those prevented opportunities are especially design-efficient (as simply having more than a single difficulty setting would be) -- that's problem enough.

I've never understood the opposition to the bolded, coming from some quarters. It's something I wish they'd make more use of. Anyway, well put.

[Velnora]

That's your opinion. I enjoy playing my Jobs and fighting the bosses. Most people enjoy the content inside the grind to keep coming back for each expansion. I'm sure plenty agree with you and play anyway, but addictive gameplay is frequently cited when people talk about this game.

In essence, it'd be nice to have more exploratory, time intensive content, but not as a replacement for quick dungeons. We're way past discussing throwing out tomestones entirely. Not gonna happen. And there's not gonna be some developer reversion to 30 minute dungeons or dungeons people constantly ragequit like in WOW, because it would kill people's ability to farm tomestones effectively and reduce player retention as people start to feel they are now playing that shitty game everyone quit in droves this year.

I mean, some people like huffing paint humes, too. Doesn't mean they are good.

People didn't leave WoW because of it's content. They left due to the attitude of the devs and their philosophy of "we'll fix it later". Burdening the game with countless half ass systems. Again, dungeons aren't the only method to get tomes.

"it would kill people's ability to farm tomestones effectively". Ya see, it isn't even about whether or not the content itself is good. Just about how efficiently someone can farm tomestones.