Dark Knight Megathread

[Shurrikhan]

If you design a job around something that feels bad, you have a bad design.

I'm not disagreeing with that.

I just don't feel that "I can sustain periodic Flood casts, so my Flood is now mostly just a rotational element" is necessarily any more interesting or fun a design than "I can't sustain my Flood casts -- they instead act largely like CDs -- so it's doubly important we burn everything here and now."

I've got 2 DRKs at 80, another at 62, and all but one tank each leveled to 80 across both main characters, and the last 8 levels of DRK are just nearly noticeable enough a change for me to call the pre-Stalwart gameplay stifled or even comparatively bad (relative to any other tank at that level) -- certainly not to the point that I'd want yet another shared tank mechanic slapped atop DRK with so little thought.

[Ryaduera]

I'm not disagreeing with that.

I just don't feel that "I can sustain periodic Flood casts, so my Flood is now mostly just a rotational element" is necessarily any more interesting or fun a design than "I can't sustain my Flood casts -- they instead act largely like CDs -- so it's doubly important we burn everything here and now."

I've got 2 DRKs at 80, another at 62, and all but one tank each leveled to 80 across both main characters, and the last 8 levels of DRK are just nearly noticeable enough a change for me to call the pre-Stalwart gameplay stifled or even comparatively bad (relative to any other tank at that level) -- certainly not to the point that I'd want yet another shared tank mechanic slapped atop DRK with so little thought.

I see what you're saying, but homogenizing tanks is not what we're asking for. It is impressively bad design to require a resource in order to play optimally without also providing a way to gain that resource back, to the point that it is better design to give a resource that you have nothing to do with. Remember 3.0 PLD and Riot Blade giving MP? That was bad design because you got MP with nothing to do with it, but the complaints on PLD wasn't even the mana. Their mana regeneration was tied to their single target DPS combo while their mana consumption was tied to Flash for leveling, which was their AoE utility. The problem wasn't mana, the problem was the design of the job.

Removing flood and get Stalwart early is just putting a bandaid on a wound that clearly needs stitches. The gameplay at its core needs changing, not the progression. If you have a resource that must be used to generate another resources, there should be a way to loop these resources, especially in a game that uses a rotation based design philosophy. Most tank gauges are fine because they are buildups for something big, but Darkside is just a joke of an excuse to halt progression entirely in favor of saying "But flood does early DPS." You don't even get the Blood Gauge, another resource that should be managed, until level 62 because they use the Darkside timer as an excuse to not add another resource, but you aren't even trying to manage Darkside as a resource, you overcap on it repeatedly on accident because you might as well just use it off cooldown.

Since we're sharing credentials as if it means anything, I'm a mod author for a handful of games, most of which have classes. If FFXIV were not an MMO, DRK would be the only class I'd write a mod for that rebuilt the class from its bare bones. Every other job (that I have played) is fine and most I wouldn't even touch, usually this games design is excellent. Dark Knight is just fundamentally flawed right down to its bare bones, I would absolutely gut this job if this was a game I could mod. There needs to be better implementation of Darkside and a layer of mechanical execution that actually rewards the player in a meaningful way. DPS increase is meaningful, but you take away all depth when overcapping feels more like a necessity than a mistake. As it stands right now, dumping all of your MP in literally every situation and overcapping on Darkside is not a mistake, but a necessity. That's the same gameplay flaw twice in a single mechanic, and I can't express enough how abysmal that design philosophy actually is.

tl;dr: The jobs entire design is based around a system that has no reward for proper execution, if you want braindead gameplay, it would be better to stop hiding it and just make it braindead on a surface level as well, which is also still bad design, just better. Please, square... Give us a decision to make and make resource management actually matter.

[Shurrikhan]

I see what you're saying, but homogenizing tanks is not what we're asking for.

Asking for job A to get skill B at level C "just like all the other jobs in [role D]" -- as has been the majority share of those asking for earlier Stalwart Soul -- is doubtless going to arrive at homogeneity, though, unless the reasons are very carefully considered, though.

It is impressively bad design to require a resource in order to play optimally without also providing a way to gain that resource back, to the point that it is better design to give a resource that you have nothing to do with. Remember 3.0 PLD and Riot Blade giving MP? That was bad design because you got MP with nothing to do with it, but the complaints on PLD wasn't even the mana.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Two nit-picks, however: At the time, all PLD AoE skills, direct (Flash) or indirect (Clemency), were dependent upon MP; thus, there was a means of use for that resource. Similarly, we do regenerate MP--passively, via a level 2 skill, a level 35 skill, a level 60 skill, and a level 68 skill, all prior to Stalwart's level 72.

While I ultimately think of MP on DRK (at present) as no more than an accelerable multi-charge cooldown system shared across multiple skills, I agree that if it's made a seemingly iconic center for the job, it ought to do more, cross over more frequently, etc..

But.... if you want all that... the real barrier isn't Unleash->Stalwart Soul so much just the current MP-spending concept on DRK. It's basic af. All MP will be, at present, is up to to 3.33 charges of TBN/Edge/Flood which you accelerate through certain skills. That's literally all it amounts to. If you want integral or interactive play, DRK's MP spending as a whole needs more there to actually interact with or around, rather than just more CD acceleration (which is all that the added MP per average AoE GCD of Stalwart amounts to).

[Ryaduera]

Two nit-picks, however: At the time, all PLD AoE skills, direct (Flash) or indirect (Clemency), were dependent upon MP; thus, there was a means of use for that resource. Similarly, we do regenerate MP--passively, via a level 2 skill, a level 35 skill, a level 60 skill, and a level 68 skill, all prior to Stalwart's level 72.

Right, but I didn't expand on why it was bad design for PLD because A) it was fixed and B) This is a DRK thread. If anything, the fact they fixed it and ruined us is an insult. But I do need to point out passive regeneration is not better.
"You have a resource you get that you need to immediately dump asap to get your best use of this skill."
"Cool how do I regenerate the resource to maximize my gameplay?"
"Oh, you won't be doing that actively, it will come back by accident."
"So... I just use this skill when available with no thought?"
"Yep."
"... In a rotation based MMO that has most classes requiring resource management on a delicate balance?"
"Yeah we wanted this one to require no thought at all so even a braindead chimp could optimize the DPS."
"Oh... So if I like to play actively what should I play?"
"Lol literally anything else. This is the only one we did this to."

But.... if you want all that... the real barrier isn't Unleash->Stalwart Soul so much just the current MP-spending concept on DRK. It's basic af. All MP will be, at present, is up to to 3.33 charges of TBN/Edge/Flood which you accelerate through certain skills. That's literally all it amounts to. If you want integral or interactive play, there needs to more actually there to interact with or around, rather than just more CD acceleration (which is all that the added MP per average AoE GCD of Stalwart amounts to).

Yes that's what we've been saying. You could also circumvent this by giving DRK a skill that consumes Darkside. You no longer want to overcap on Darkside, nor do you want to dump MP straight away since you will want to weave in your new Darkside skill. Something somewhere will have to give in potency probably, but it would add a layer of depth to an otherwise flat gameplay design. Like I said, "fixing" the stalwart soul and flood progression situation is just putting a bandaid on a wound that needs stitches. Nothing was "fixed" but at least you did something. What you really need to fix is the design, but I'd still rather have a bandaid than nothing. I'd rather have something that either also used MP so I had to make a choice, or something that consumed Darkside so I'd have to think about when to rebuild my Darkside and when to consume it.

[Shurrikhan]

Yes that's what we've been saying. You could also circumvent this by giving DRK a skill that consumes Darkside. You no longer want to overcap on Darkside, nor do you want to dump MP straight away since you will want to weave in your new Darkside skill. Something somewhere will have to give in potency probably, but it would add a layer of depth to an otherwise flat gameplay design. Like I said, "fixing" the stalwart soul and flood progression situation is just putting a bandaid on a wound that needs stitches. Nothing was "fixed" but at least you did something. What you really need to fix is the design, but I'd still rather have a bandaid than nothing. I'd rather have something that either also used MP so I had to make a choice, or something that consumed Darkside so I'd have to think about when to rebuild my Darkside and when to consume it.

Ahh. It seems I missed the intermediate steps of the conversation, or just caught only the most repeated snippets without their earlier contexts.

Yes, I'd of course be down for making Darkside, MP, etc., actual, integral mechanics. So long as we're not stopping at Stalwart, let alone approaching it just because "Other tanks have X!" then I'm all for this. My concern was that mere bandaid would be used to avoid dealing with a festering wound. Frankly, DRK needs the surgery.

[Ryaduera]

Ahh. It seems I missed the intermediate steps of the conversation, or just caught only the most repeated snippets without their earlier contexts.

Yes, I'd of course be down for making Darkside, MP, etc., actual, integral mechanics. So long as we're not stopping at Stalwart, let alone approaching it just because "Other tanks have X!" then I'm all for this. My concern was that mere bandaid would be used to avoid dealing with a festering wound. Frankly, DRK needs the surgery.

Aye, this being said there are a number of people using the "other tanks have x" which in my opinion is only valid in terms of healing and damage reduction, because we lack there too, as seen in numerous other threads. This thread is long enough many sub-conversations have been had so I can't fault you on that, but I am constantly seeing the Stalwart Soul issue come up VERY often.

[Shurrikhan]

Aye, this being said there are a number of people using the "other tanks have x" which in my opinion is only valid in terms of healing and damage reduction

Mm. About the way I see it:

• Lacking competitiveness in a given raid tier?

  If multiple other tanks are ahead (or any tank has advantage over all others), we should complain.

• Lacking a certain capacity?

  Well, does it affect our competitiveness, either in prog or parse-run frames of reference? If so, we should complain.

• Having merely different portions of capacities, such as less self-healing (but more damage absorbed, to a roughly nearly total, even in practice)?

  Unless it affects our competitiveness, probably not a concern.

• Having a more convoluted way of doing the same thing?

  Unless it affects our competitiveness and/or is no more fun (in any way) for having that unique procedure, probably not a concern.

At minimum, DRK lacks some a competitive invuln, to-be-minutely polished QoL, either broader applicability of its defensive, and/or self-sustain. I could spitball some quick "solutions", e.g.

• Blood Weapon would be fixed if it just lasted 11 or 12 seconds (4.2 to 4.6 GCDs when counting for animation lock costs, given how its MP-granting procedure works) instead of 10 (effectively 3.8 GCDs),
• TBN's applicability could be widened by not giving merely all-or-nothing MP recuperation (instead giving, say, MP cost reduction on next Flood/Edge proportionate to barrier consumed),
• Bloodspiller and Quietus themselves could grant a 5-second %lifesteal window (Quietus at lesser percentage, but refreshing the Bloodspiller effect), and
• Living Dead could simply convert would-be fatal damage into healing-absorption, and deals 1 point more damage at the end of its duration (so you die only if left at 1 or, effectively, less HP, rather than costing your healer 100% of your HP's worth of healing just to un-Doom you.

...but that still wouldn't make DRK outright fun or particularly appealing. (Though I would probably enjoy the aforementioned Bloodspiller windows.) And if it comes down to "simple fixes first" or "identity/gameplay first", I'd rather start at the latter. So when something is presented as the easy/obvious fix, with links drawn to other tanks rather than the benefits for DRK's gameplay itself, I tend to be wary of it.
(Again, no longer worried about that from your idea. I'm glad to see you have the gameplay loops at interest in DRK's own right.)