Dark Knight Megathread

[Syaoran_Black]

It would be nice to have Stalwart Soul acquired at the same levels the other tanks get their second AoE variation. Unlike the other tanks, DRK has to wait until 72 just to get their second AoE move; also, of all the things they could have done with BW, why they still have it on a timer is beyond me. Idk who's decision it was to keep it that way or if it's just the JPN community talking, but that is just awful.

Personally, I like the idea of removing the MP cost from TBN, putting it to 25 seconds, and perhaps adding some type of health benefit tying into the shield itself if it breaks (or not); perhaps, once it breaks or does not you get some kind of healing benefit, sorta like Heart of Conundrum. Then again, some people would probably not want that as it would be too similar. LD is another issue in itself as some people I talk to think it is a 20 second invul.

While I play DRK casually or just for fun even I see it as a WAR clone. I miss having Sole Survivor as at least if you didn't kill the enemy, you still got 20% HP and MP back vs. 30%, respectively. A new combo would have been sweet, but hey, that is asking for too much.

[Tarrick]

It would be nice to have Stalwart Soul acquired at the same levels the other tanks get their second AoE variation. Unlike the other tanks, DRK has to wait until 72 just to get their second AoE move; also, of all the things they could have done with BW, why they still have it on a timer is beyond me. Idk who's decision it was to keep it that way or if it's just the JPN community talking, but that is just awful.

I guess we're just ignoring Flood of Darkness at 30, Salted Earth at 52, and Abyssal Drain at 56 for some reason because they're OGCD?

WAR doesn't get Mythril Tempest until 40 and then technically has Steel Cyclone at 45 but good luck ever finding opportunity to use it when you don't generate beast gauge from AoE until 74, leaving them with effectively just 2 moves for the vast majority of AoE situations until then.

They're different implementations. I thought you wanted them to be distinct from each other.

[Shurrikhan]

I guess we're just ignoring Flood of Darkness at 30, Salted Earth at 52, and Abyssal Drain at 56 for some reason because they're OGCD?

WAR doesn't get Mythril Tempest until 40 and then technically has Steel Cyclone at 45 but good luck ever finding opportunity to use it when you don't generate beast gauge from AoE until 74, leaving them with effectively just 2 moves for the vast majority of AoE situations until then.

They're different implementations. I thought you wanted them to be distinct from each other.

^ Unless the DRK were doing noticeably less AoE across the same pull sizes in the same leveling dungeon than other tanks would do at that same level... I don't see the need for Stalwart Soul so early.

You're inevitably balanced around getting your AoE-pt.2. That means, in effect, that you just have a weaker AoE-pt.1 (including its surrounding available AoE ppm via abilities) while being forced to backload each AoE cast with its requisite Part-B.

If hitting ABABAB were really that much more fun than AAAAA (and the occasional 12 strike to give the last MP boost needed for Flood, which is stronger than Mythril anyways), I could understand wanting to nerf Flood (and by counterpart, Edge) across levels 40-72 to make way for Stalwart Soul, but... is it, actually?

[Ryaduera]

Oh my God, this is amazing! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before? Having Dark Arts tied to the Darkside timer is wonderful idea. Since the skill can only be used every 30 seconds, it alleviates the Dark Arts spam that plagued 4.0 DRK. And it also expands the use of the Darkside mechanic as well.

Seriously, why hasn't SE or anyone else here thought of this? Props to you Rosenstrauch. Oh, and your other suggestions are good too, but this Dark Arts rework is fantastic.

Because this wouldn't solve anything for the Darkside timer as an issue. The only way it could fall off is outright neglect, meaning tying something to 30 seconds of being under Darkside is just a 30 second cooldown with extra fluff

^ Unless the DRK were doing noticeably less AoE across the same pull sizes in the same leveling dungeon than other tanks would do at that same level... I don't see the need for Stalwart Soul so early.

You're inevitably balanced around getting your AoE-pt.2. That means, in effect, that you just have a weaker AoE-pt.1 (including its surrounding available AoE ppm via abilities) while being forced to backload each AoE cast with its requisite Part-B.

If hitting ABABAB were really that much more fun than AAAAA (and the occasional 12 strike to give the last MP boost needed for Flood, which is stronger than Mythril anyways), I could understand wanting to nerf Flood (and by counterpart, Edge) across levels 40-72 to make way for Stalwart Soul, but... is it, actually?

If you balance a job around something that makes the job feels bad, you still have a bad job, even if it is balanced. We aren't asking for a balance update, we're asking for interactive gameplay.

[Shurrikhan]

Because this wouldn't solve anything for the Darkside timer as an issue. The only way it could fall off is outright neglect, meaning tying something to 30 seconds of being under Darkside is just a 30 second cooldown with extra fluff

If you balance a job around something that makes the job feels bad, you still have a bad job, even if it is balanced. We aren't asking for a balance update, we're asking for interactive gameplay.

I don't see how ABABAB and nothing of value on which to spend what B affords is any more interactive, really, than AAAAA and a decent Flood.

At least with a decent Flood I have better AoE-downtime value, allowing me to bank for a large pull, whereas (still assuming starting from full MP) if Flood were more thoroughly afforded over uptime and nerfed accordingly, I'd have dealt less damage over the first 15 seconds or so.

You're effectively trading 3.3 charges of Flood, accelerated by a CD (Blood Weapon) for 3.3 charges of a weaker Flood that's accelerated both by a CD and, much more significantly, every other GCD. Do you want a greater amount of potency bankable and less uptime generation (which is equally greater downtime generation, relatively speaking) or less potency bankable and more uptime generation? That's all it comes down to. It isn't so cut-and-dry, DRK-got-screwed-again-in-such-an-obvious-way. The throughput is there and there's quite a bit more control and burst in DRK's model of AoE over those levels than on any other tank over those levels (save perhaps GNB's capacity for, situationally obligatory, focus-target damage).

So let's actually define what appeals to you in that interactive gameplay. Is it the uptime generation, similar to WAR's reducing the CD of Infuriate per BG spender (but in this case Flood via each SS cast, via MP)? Do we just want to see one skill being more dependent on another, or less of a skill's throughput being dependent on CDs or single-target (situationally damage)? What is the appeal of that economy?

I don't think there's just one right answer -- the appeal of this or that will have different product of the number of people it appeals to and the extent to which it appeals to them -- but if we're just copying over the other tank's models on the assumption they must be better and no more thought-out solution is worth the effort compared to slapping another's on more directly or earlier, we've already seen how that goes. Can't we at least think about this before demanding we have whatever they're having in the forms they're having it?

[Ryaduera]

I don't see how ABABAB and nothing of value on which to spend what B affords is any more interactive, really, than AAAAA and a decent Flood.

At least with a decent Flood I have better AoE-downtime value, allowing me to bank for a large pull, whereas (still assuming starting from full MP) if Flood were more thoroughly afforded over uptime and nerfed accordingly, I'd have dealt less damage over the first 15 seconds or so.

You're effectively trading 3.3 charges of Flood, accelerated by a CD (Blood Weapon) for 3.3 charges of a weaker Flood that's accelerated both by a CD and, much more significantly, every other GCD. Do you want a greater amount of potency bankable and less uptime generation (which is equally greater downtime generation, relatively speaking) or less potency bankable and more uptime generation? That's all it comes down to. It isn't so cut-and-dry, DRK-got-screwed-again-in-such-an-obvious-way. The throughput is there and there's quite a bit more control and burst in DRK's model of AoE over those levels than on any other tank over those levels (save perhaps GNB's capacity for, situationally obligatory, focus-target damage).

So let's actually define what appeals to you in that interactive gameplay. Is it the uptime generation, similar to WAR's reducing the CD of Infuriate per BG spender (but in this case Flood via each SS cast, via MP)? Do we just want to see one skill being more dependent on another, or less of a skill's throughput being dependent on CDs or single-target (situationally damage)? What is the appeal of that economy?

I don't think there's just one right answer, but if we're just copying over the other tank's models on the assumption they must be better and no more thought-out solution is worth the effort compared to slapping another's on more directly or earlier, we've already seen how that goes.

It's because you go in with mana full and then go 1-2-1-2-1-2- then run out of mana with no way to regenerate it in the pulls outside of Blood Weapon that you can't do every AoE situation (and even if you do, unleash is not effected by skill speed), switching to just 1- -1- -1- until you maybe have MP. It's not about effectiveness, most people agree DRK is effective in all content because the balance team is on point. The job feels like an absolute slog to play and the progression takes ages to get anything that would be called necessary to its playstyle, and then after it finally gets the necessities for it's functionality, it then gets nothing after that except for more noise. If you design a job around something that feels bad, you have a bad design. Part of the reason that the Unleash and Flood playstyle is bad is because of the big picture. Were this an independent issue, I doubt many would care since AoE situations in the endgame don't even really matter that much.

Even 3.0 lacked a combo to AoE with... but we did have 2 on global options with good mana regeneration.

[Shurrikhan]

If you design a job around something that feels bad, you have a bad design.

I'm not disagreeing with that.

I just don't feel that "I can sustain periodic Flood casts, so my Flood is now mostly just a rotational element" is necessarily any more interesting or fun a design than "I can't sustain my Flood casts -- they instead act largely like CDs -- so it's doubly important we burn everything here and now."

I've got 2 DRKs at 80, another at 62, and all but one tank each leveled to 80 across both main characters, and the last 8 levels of DRK are just nearly noticeable enough a change for me to call the pre-Stalwart gameplay stifled or even comparatively bad (relative to any other tank at that level) -- certainly not to the point that I'd want yet another shared tank mechanic slapped atop DRK with so little thought.

[Ryaduera]

I'm not disagreeing with that.

I just don't feel that "I can sustain periodic Flood casts, so my Flood is now mostly just a rotational element" is necessarily any more interesting or fun a design than "I can't sustain my Flood casts -- they instead act largely like CDs -- so it's doubly important we burn everything here and now."

I've got 2 DRKs at 80, another at 62, and all but one tank each leveled to 80 across both main characters, and the last 8 levels of DRK are just nearly noticeable enough a change for me to call the pre-Stalwart gameplay stifled or even comparatively bad (relative to any other tank at that level) -- certainly not to the point that I'd want yet another shared tank mechanic slapped atop DRK with so little thought.

I see what you're saying, but homogenizing tanks is not what we're asking for. It is impressively bad design to require a resource in order to play optimally without also providing a way to gain that resource back, to the point that it is better design to give a resource that you have nothing to do with. Remember 3.0 PLD and Riot Blade giving MP? That was bad design because you got MP with nothing to do with it, but the complaints on PLD wasn't even the mana. Their mana regeneration was tied to their single target DPS combo while their mana consumption was tied to Flash for leveling, which was their AoE utility. The problem wasn't mana, the problem was the design of the job.

Removing flood and get Stalwart early is just putting a bandaid on a wound that clearly needs stitches. The gameplay at its core needs changing, not the progression. If you have a resource that must be used to generate another resources, there should be a way to loop these resources, especially in a game that uses a rotation based design philosophy. Most tank gauges are fine because they are buildups for something big, but Darkside is just a joke of an excuse to halt progression entirely in favor of saying "But flood does early DPS." You don't even get the Blood Gauge, another resource that should be managed, until level 62 because they use the Darkside timer as an excuse to not add another resource, but you aren't even trying to manage Darkside as a resource, you overcap on it repeatedly on accident because you might as well just use it off cooldown.

Since we're sharing credentials as if it means anything, I'm a mod author for a handful of games, most of which have classes. If FFXIV were not an MMO, DRK would be the only class I'd write a mod for that rebuilt the class from its bare bones. Every other job (that I have played) is fine and most I wouldn't even touch, usually this games design is excellent. Dark Knight is just fundamentally flawed right down to its bare bones, I would absolutely gut this job if this was a game I could mod. There needs to be better implementation of Darkside and a layer of mechanical execution that actually rewards the player in a meaningful way. DPS increase is meaningful, but you take away all depth when overcapping feels more like a necessity than a mistake. As it stands right now, dumping all of your MP in literally every situation and overcapping on Darkside is not a mistake, but a necessity. That's the same gameplay flaw twice in a single mechanic, and I can't express enough how abysmal that design philosophy actually is.

tl;dr: The jobs entire design is based around a system that has no reward for proper execution, if you want braindead gameplay, it would be better to stop hiding it and just make it braindead on a surface level as well, which is also still bad design, just better. Please, square... Give us a decision to make and make resource management actually matter.

[Shurrikhan]

I see what you're saying, but homogenizing tanks is not what we're asking for.

Asking for job A to get skill B at level C "just like all the other jobs in [role D]" -- as has been the majority share of those asking for earlier Stalwart Soul -- is doubtless going to arrive at homogeneity, though, unless the reasons are very carefully considered, though.

It is impressively bad design to require a resource in order to play optimally without also providing a way to gain that resource back, to the point that it is better design to give a resource that you have nothing to do with. Remember 3.0 PLD and Riot Blade giving MP? That was bad design because you got MP with nothing to do with it, but the complaints on PLD wasn't even the mana.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Two nit-picks, however: At the time, all PLD AoE skills, direct (Flash) or indirect (Clemency), were dependent upon MP; thus, there was a means of use for that resource. Similarly, we do regenerate MP--passively, via a level 2 skill, a level 35 skill, a level 60 skill, and a level 68 skill, all prior to Stalwart's level 72.

While I ultimately think of MP on DRK (at present) as no more than an accelerable multi-charge cooldown system shared across multiple skills, I agree that if it's made a seemingly iconic center for the job, it ought to do more, cross over more frequently, etc..

But.... if you want all that... the real barrier isn't Unleash->Stalwart Soul so much just the current MP-spending concept on DRK. It's basic af. All MP will be, at present, is up to to 3.33 charges of TBN/Edge/Flood which you accelerate through certain skills. That's literally all it amounts to. If you want integral or interactive play, DRK's MP spending as a whole needs more there to actually interact with or around, rather than just more CD acceleration (which is all that the added MP per average AoE GCD of Stalwart amounts to).

[Ryaduera]

Two nit-picks, however: At the time, all PLD AoE skills, direct (Flash) or indirect (Clemency), were dependent upon MP; thus, there was a means of use for that resource. Similarly, we do regenerate MP--passively, via a level 2 skill, a level 35 skill, a level 60 skill, and a level 68 skill, all prior to Stalwart's level 72.

Right, but I didn't expand on why it was bad design for PLD because A) it was fixed and B) This is a DRK thread. If anything, the fact they fixed it and ruined us is an insult. But I do need to point out passive regeneration is not better.
"You have a resource you get that you need to immediately dump asap to get your best use of this skill."
"Cool how do I regenerate the resource to maximize my gameplay?"
"Oh, you won't be doing that actively, it will come back by accident."
"So... I just use this skill when available with no thought?"
"Yep."
"... In a rotation based MMO that has most classes requiring resource management on a delicate balance?"
"Yeah we wanted this one to require no thought at all so even a braindead chimp could optimize the DPS."
"Oh... So if I like to play actively what should I play?"
"Lol literally anything else. This is the only one we did this to."

But.... if you want all that... the real barrier isn't Unleash->Stalwart Soul so much just the current MP-spending concept on DRK. It's basic af. All MP will be, at present, is up to to 3.33 charges of TBN/Edge/Flood which you accelerate through certain skills. That's literally all it amounts to. If you want integral or interactive play, there needs to more actually there to interact with or around, rather than just more CD acceleration (which is all that the added MP per average AoE GCD of Stalwart amounts to).

Yes that's what we've been saying. You could also circumvent this by giving DRK a skill that consumes Darkside. You no longer want to overcap on Darkside, nor do you want to dump MP straight away since you will want to weave in your new Darkside skill. Something somewhere will have to give in potency probably, but it would add a layer of depth to an otherwise flat gameplay design. Like I said, "fixing" the stalwart soul and flood progression situation is just putting a bandaid on a wound that needs stitches. Nothing was "fixed" but at least you did something. What you really need to fix is the design, but I'd still rather have a bandaid than nothing. I'd rather have something that either also used MP so I had to make a choice, or something that consumed Darkside so I'd have to think about when to rebuild my Darkside and when to consume it.