Raising healing requirements for newer content alone won't also improve older content

[QooEr]

I mean, if SE is capable of stat squishing the game, isn't also possible for them to also reduce the effect of the stat squish on a case by case basis?

So, for example, we the players have our stats reduced by roughly 66% by the squish, would it not be theoretically possible for SE to adjust content to only be 60% squished in comparison so that, enemies are suddenly hitting a little bit harder, DPS checks are a little bit more difficult and heal checks a slightly more challenging?

Its hard to understand what youre trying to say. If you meant "could SE use the stat squish to make old content feel harder", then yes, the stat squish is their perfect opportunity to do that. But theyve expressedly said they will not. Content done at near its minimum item level will be adjusted to be balanced roughly the same as it was pre-squish, but the stat squish will make it so outgearing content feels less pronounced.

In an interview yoshida pointed out how for example crystal tower won't be completely facerolled with max item level because theyre making stats increase more linearly and less exponentially. So some players might feel such content suddenly got "harder" after the stat squish. Which means that unless you heavily outgeared a duty pre-squish, its going to feel mostly the same post-squish. Leveling dungeons have a relatively tight ilv sync compared to level cap duties so its highly unlikely youll notice such a drastic difference in performance for shisui, but you might for level cap dungeons.

[Deceptus]

I think there's only two ways they can alleviate this:

1. Retune stats for older content to be balanced in the way they were intended and compensate the iLevel difference and level difference (maybe stat caps)
2. Give us better DPS options because that's all we are going to be doing anyway.

After clearing Titan Savage my group decided to do Cape Westwind min iLevel synced for fun and the healing experience was more intensive, I think when you play some of this content at a level it was intended it's more engaging.

I don't think it will be perfect as I think encounter design plays it's part too, but I think it would ease the problem. And I think it'll be good for newer people too because they get to enjoy the content as it was intended instead of just face rolling stuff like it's insignificant

That's supposed to be the point of the ilvl sync and the min ilvl Cape Westwind you did shows that it does indeed work as intended.

The problem is that the developers let the ilvl go so high from the minimum that it's not working. It really shouldn't be allowed to be more than 5-10 ilvls from the min.

The ARR raids are supposed to be ilvl 70 and you're synced to 120/130. That's almost double where you are supposed to be. THAT'S why people blast through it.

[Silver-Strider]

Its hard to understand what youre trying to say. If you meant "could SE use the stat squish to make old content feel harder", then yes, the stat squish is their perfect opportunity to do that. But theyve expressedly said they will not. Content done at near its minimum item level will be adjusted to be balanced roughly the same as it was pre-squish, but the stat squish will make it so outgearing content feels less pronounced.

In an interview yoshida pointed out how for example crystal tower won't be completely facerolled with max item level because theyre making stats increase more linearly and less exponentially. So some players might feel such content suddenly got "harder" after the stat squish. Which means that unless you heavily outgeared a duty pre-squish, its going to feel mostly the same post-squish. Leveling dungeons have a relatively tight ilv sync compared to level cap duties so its highly unlikely youll notice such a drastic difference in performance for shisui, but you might for level cap dungeons.

That's what I meant so you're right. It was just my opinion on how it could've been done and it's disheartening that it won't happen because old content really does need to be somewhat more challenging, if only to make it more engaging.

[HappyHubris]

That's what I meant so you're right. It was just my opinion on how it could've been done and it's disheartening that it won't happen because old content really does need to be somewhat more challenging, if only to make it more engaging.

I don't think we'll ever win this fight. There are way more people looking to faceroll roulette for currency than are looking for a challenge.

[Saefinn]

That's supposed to be the point of the ilvl sync and the min ilvl Cape Westwind you did shows that it does indeed work as intended.

The problem is that the developers let the ilvl go so high from the minimum that it's not working. It really shouldn't be allowed to be more than 5-10 ilvls from the min.

The ARR raids are supposed to be ilvl 70 and you're synced to 120/130. That's almost double where you are supposed to be. THAT'S why people blast through it.

Agreed and to be where we were doing it first time we were probably closer to iLevel 45 because it's a level 49 story trial. I would happily welcome a tighter iLevel cap (and if necessary too, a stat cap) and then we get the content as it was intended. I'm really hoping they resolve that because Yoshi P has acknowledged iLevel difference are an issue, but how he recognises it as an issue and what they're willing to do as a result of course is the important part.

And I think it would be really sensible if they did, especially with the influx for new players, I imagine ploughing through this stuff as a new player is underwhelming and lacks the impact it once had. Imagine getting Labyrinth of the Ancient in Alliance Roulettes and having to actually do the mechanics.

[HappyHubris]

Agreed and to be where we were doing it first time we were probably closer to iLevel 45 because it's a level 49 story trial. I would happily welcome a tighter iLevel cap (and if necessary too, a stat cap) and then we get the content as it was intended. I'm really hoping they resolve that because Yoshi P has acknowledged iLevel difference are an issue, but how he recognises it as an issue and what they're willing to do as a result of course is the important part.

And I think it would be really sensible if they did, especially with the influx for new players, I imagine ploughing through this stuff as a new player is underwhelming and lacks the impact it once had. Imagine getting Labyrinth of the Ancient in Alliance Roulettes and having to actually do the mechanics.

S-E's golden rule seems to be "low skill floor," so while we might see content go from utterly trivial to rather trivial, it will still be trivial.

The very last thing they want is someone getting Labyrinth on their roulette and flat out failing to clear.

[Saefinn]

S-E's golden rule seems to be "low skill floor," so while we might see content go from utterly trivial to rather trivial, it will still be trivial.

The very last thing they want is someone getting Labyrinth on their roulette and flat out failing to clear.

I mean, yes, they are going for a low skill floor, but shouldn't content work as it was intended? The great advantage of how ARR was balanced was that it started you at a low skill level and gradually built you up, it doesn't do that anymore because of how it's balanced. If they rebalanced it, by the time people are level 50 they'll have increased in skill and would be able to clear that content. This can then help them be better prepared for later content too. And then they also get to experience the game. And the people I see having issues with wipes in LoTA is people who get it in a roulette. People still wipe to World of Darkness because failing mechanics there can still be deadly and I don't think it would be much different. When things are a faceroll nobody really learns anything.

[BooPoo]

I don't get it. Everything you said is kinda true but none of it contradicts my points?

There are certain "tankbuster" like crits or mechanics that cannot be missed...just like FFXIV.

Yes. But not to the extreme where you have to constantly spam healing spells like in WoW. Please don't assume you're the only person that has played the most popular MMO for the past 15 years.

And WoW healing classes have entire damage specs that can be instantly swapped into for leveling, DPSing, PVP, or whatever.

Yes. And do you think that is a good design? In a role playing game, you never see any holy/disc priest or resto druid outside of instances in the open world? If I want to play a disc priest. Then I'll play the disc priest. I do not want to be forced into Shadow just so that I can function independently.

We have a close example of it in 14. Imagine that you're a SCH main but you can only play summoner for MSQ/Fate/Sidequesting/Bozja because healing classes deal almost less than 10% of DPS damage. Even assuming the gears are shared, that is terrible design. Some people play for class aesthetics, fantasies etc. and they need to be respected. Blizzard certainly does not if you'd look at how different the gameplay/aesthetic is between those "specs" that are essentially just different classes with a few shared abilities.

Pretending that FFXIV healers have it better with one nuke, one DoT, and one AoE is sad. I don't get why FFXIV players have this huge inferiority complex about a game they never tried.

Again I've stated that ffxiv healers have their own problems, namely no real DPS rotation, but the concept of hybrid healer is objectively superior because it offers more gameplay potential to us. RPG games are not just about instanced raids/dungeons. Every class needs offensive capabilities in a world where the basic gameplay for every character is to kill monsters. "Worst" case if healers get more DPS abilities in the future, you're welcome to just... not use them?

Please don't assume most of us never played WoW healers. I did, and they sucked.

I would much rather need to heal a lot than spam glare over and over.

Sure. I would rather juggle between healing and a semi DPS rotation, why not make that an option? SGE is a good step but it's still too conservative in terms of DPS abilities.

[MellowMink]

Another reminder that raising the skill ceiling and raising the skill floor are neither the same thing nor have to be equally synchronized. If someone doesn't already use DPS actions and only plays content where all they have to do is heal, then adding more won't change the complexity of how they personally approach the game.

[Saefinn]

Another reminder that raising the skill ceiling and raising the skill floor are neither the same thing nor have to be equally synchronized. If someone doesn't already use DPS actions and only plays content where all they have to do is heal, then adding more won't change the complexity of how they personally approach the game.

This is the bit I don't understand.

- Healers are suppose to heal, not DPS. DPS is only a bonus secondary thing. It's not required.
- Okay, can we have more DPS skills because we have this section where we're not healing? It'll break it up for us.
- No, it'll make things too difficult for lower skilled healers.

I know from the devs' perspective the problem is that people will expect people to DPS and it's extra pressure. However, nothing about that has changed. To me, if that healer wants to keep their DPS simple & spam broil, I'm not going to care because they're making the effort, I don't pick up DPS who fall behind on DPSing well nor do I on a tank. And if I did, then it'd fall under their harassment clause anyway.

Just update hall of the novice with teachings on how healer DPS can be applied, like "only do it if you have time, prioritise healing - damage is only a bonus" and "it doesn't matter if you don't DPS well as along as the party is alive". It'd a) give those healers ammunition if somebody is like "DPS better" and b) it'd maybe reassure those unconfident healers they don't have to be overwhelmed by having both a healing kit and DPS kit.