The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

[Cleretic]

Ifrit's whole line in response to our not being Tempered by his flames.

IFRIT: "Forsooth, thy frail mortal frame can serve as vessel to the blessing of but One. Yet I smell not the taint of another upon thee... The truth of thy allegiance waxeth clear--thou art of the godless blessed's number. The Paragons warned of thine abhorrent kind. Thine existence is not to be suffered.

This implied that Ifrit did not know the truth about us, but was fed false information by the Ascians, who do not view Hydaelyn as a Goddess, only as a blight. It could have also been the Echo, a more likely supposition by some. Keep in mind though, this is also a very weak version of Ifrit, too. He might not have his proper powers of detection.

...wait, why do you suddenly decide this one part is the result of a lie, when we take every single other thing said both by Ifrit and the priest in this scene as truth? Why is this one part suddenly the thing we don't believe?

That scene is actually the one singular evidence we have that already being tempered is, itself, a defense against tempering. We have never once, in the entire game, seen an attempt. This fact is actually the lynchpin of the entire 'WoL is tempered' theory, too; since the theory presupposes that the real reason were immune to tempering isn't the Echo but the alleged tempering*, we have to consider the one source of this fact to be legitimate.

...so why do we believe him about that one thing, but not every single other thing they say, including the thing that shuts down the theory? Because where I'm standing it just looks like you're picking and choosing the facts you want to be valuable and claiming the evidence against your theory to be nonsense.

*Incidentally, on an unrelated chain, this theory also dismisses Zenos, Arenvald, Fordola, Mikoto and Misija, all of which have the Echo but no Blessing of Light, but who all resisted tempering on at least one occasion (fun fact, Mikoto's the only one that's only done it once). Misija outright says that it's because the Echo is the thing that protects against tempering, with her evidence being Ysayle--but since Ysayle actually did have the Blessing, she's not on the same list. So, yeah, we've actually got a significant amount more instances of 'Echo, no blessing' people resisting tempering than we do people with the Blessing doing the same.

[GoldStarz]

...wait, why do you suddenly decide this one part is the result of a lie, when we take every single other thing said both by Ifrit and the priest in this scene as truth? Why is this one part suddenly the thing we don't believe?

That scene is actually the one singular evidence we have that already being tempered is, itself, a defense against tempering. We have never once, in the entire game, seen an attempt. This fact is actually the lynchpin of the entire 'WoL is tempered' theory, too; since the theory presupposes that the real reason were immune to tempering isn't the Echo but the alleged tempering*, we have to consider the one source of this fact to be legitimate.
.

This is incorrect, the current version of the theory supposed that the tempering protects against the effects of those Primals for whom the Echo wouldn't suffice (read: Zodiark), not that the Echo offers no protection against tempering which it demonstrably does.

[MikkoAkure]

FFXIV starts with a supernatural vision.

Yes. That’s how our Echo is awoken. A vision. As Elidibus in Shadowbringers explained, she’s always reaching out and calling to those who have awakened to their souls’ memories of Amaurot. But the Echo is not specifically granted by her. Anyone who receives the Echo would mistakenly be considered touched by her like Garuda says, and up until Shadowbringers, everyone thought it was. But I was under the impression that Shadowbringers dispelled the notion that the Echo is tempering.

A disciple of Zodiark, Elidibus, artificially recreates the trigger to awaken the Echo to those who have Amaurotine soul fragments and they all hear Hydaelyn’s pre-recorded message that keeps playing to those who can hear it and they mistakenly believe it’s the goddess and they feel called to action.

But why are these same tired arguments coming back all of the sudden? If everyone who is granted a vision by Hydaelyn or spoken to after getting the Echo is tempered by her, then where does that leave Zenos, Fordola, and Misija, who all have the artificial echo? Or the Sahagin Priest, Saint Ajora, or Ysayle, who all had the Echo and fought against her? Ysayle herself quotes Hydaelyn and references visions granted to her by her. The Ascians all have the Echo and know and can hear Hydaelyn calling. Considering their god is in a coma, why isn't her "tempering" overwriting theirs?

Trying to tie the vision after getting the Echo to being tempered or even to the Blessing doesn't make any sense.


I’m also confused about the rambling on people calling Hydaelyn a goddess, people praying to her, or her calling us “child”. None of that necessarily = tempering.

If anyone is tempered by her, it would be Minfilia when she goes to her. But pre-HW Minfilia, the entire Path of Twelve, the Circle of Knowing, the entire country of Sharlayan, and the Eorzean leaders, all call her a Goddess or at least recognize her as the Mothercrystal, and only those in the Path have the Echo. None of them fully understood what she was prior to Emet-Selch's explanation and as it is in all societies in the face of something powerful to them, many called her a goddess.

In Answers, she calls all of life her children, and she’s not exactly wrong. She controls the lifestream and the flow of souls and is responsible for caretaking and protecting the shattered lives of our era after preventing them from being used as a fuel for a primal spell. Zodiark may have created the new life, but he kind of went deadbeat dad and his followers decided that they can reap his harvest to bring their friends back who had turned into aetherial gasoline already.

So I still say it could go either way, but from my perspective the Tempering status of the WoL leans towards, "Yeah, they are man."

It only looks that way if you believe it’s possible to begin with. To me, it’s easier to explain everything in the game without us being tempered and your argument of tempering requires you to go into “news clippings connected by string on a cork board” level of conspiracy theorist.

In the event that we were tempered, it is so low of a tempering and we are granted so much free will to the point it doesn’t even matter so why would it even need to come up in the story? What does being tempered actually add to the narrative except as a justification for all the edgy players upset that their character doesn’t join with Garleans, the Ascians, and Zodiark to go around kicking puppies to make Crystal Mom mad?

[Cleretic]

This is incorrect, the current version of the theory supposed that the tempering protects against the effects of those Primals for whom the Echo wouldn't suffice (read: Zodiark), not that the Echo offers no protection against tempering which it demonstrably does.

The argument still holds. Ifrit and his followers in that scene both provide the only mention in the entire game that being tempered protects from other tempering, and the most clear and steadfast evidence that the Warrior of Light is not tempered (namely, that Ifrit can sense tempering and says we're not; first-hand evidence, how about that).

How does this theory hold the former as a gospel truth, while throwing out the latter like yesterday's garbage? Surely, both should be held to an equal standard; either both are true and should be considered as such, or both should be thrown out as invalid evidence. It can't go both ways.

I’m also confused about the rambling on people calling Hydaelyn a goddess, people praying to her, or her calling us “child”. None of that necessarily = tempering.

If anyone is tempered by her, it would be Minfilia when she goes to her. But pre-HW Minfilia, the entire Path of Twelve, the Circle of Knowing, the entire country of Sharlayan, and the Eorzean leaders, all call her a Goddess or at least recognize her as the Mothercrystal, and only those in the Path have the Echo. None of them fully understood what she was prior to Emet-Selch's explanation and as it is in all societies in the face of something powerful to them, many called her a goddess.

Also, on this subject, it's worth noting that Hydaelyn worship to that degree is actually extremely minor in the game world, and not really held by any external commonality. Not everyone with the Echo worships her; Fordola, Misija, Arenvald and Mikoto never show any indication of believing in her. Not even everyone with the Blessing worships her; Ysayle recognizes that she exists, but DEFINITELY doesn't worship her.

Hydaelyn worship's just a small religion. If you distrust Hydaelyn worship, do you distrust every single religion in the entire game world? Because a huge theme of the game is that doing that is an awful thing that leads to horrible events.

[Theodric]

As an aside, whether or not the player character being Tempered is an interesting plot point is in itself entirely subjective. Some people will like the idea, others will dislike it and then there's going to be a third group who are entirely indifferent.

I think it's enough to acknowledge that it could go either way, really.

The writers are ultimately going to tell the story that they want to tell at the end of the day. As for what that may be? Well, we'll find out in a matter of weeks.

At this point, nothing is a certainty but it is looking likely that one way or another both Hydaelyn and Zodiark will be taking their leave of the story as of the conclusion of Endwalker.

[MikkoAkure]

The argument still holds. Ifrit and his followers in that scene both provide the only mention in the entire game that being tempered protects from other tempering, and the most clear and steadfast evidence that the Warrior of Light is not tempered (namely, that Ifrit can sense tempering and says we're not; first-hand evidence, how about that).

How does this theory hold the former as a gospel truth, while throwing out the latter like yesterday's garbage? Surely, both should be held to an equal standard; either both are true and should be considered as such, or both should be thrown out as invalid evidence. It can't go both ways.



Also, on this subject, it's worth noting that Hydaelyn worship to that degree is actually extremely minor in the game world, and not really held by any external commonality. Not everyone with the Echo worships her; Fordola, Misija, Arenvald and Mikoto never show any indication of believing in her. Not even everyone with the Blessing worships her; Ysayle recognizes that she exists, but DEFINITELY doesn't worship her.

Hydaelyn worship's just a small religion. If you distrust Hydaelyn worship, do you distrust every single religion in the entire game world? Because a huge theme of the game is that doing that is an awful thing that leads to horrible events.

There's also the fact that they deliberately changed Ifrit's dialogue from 1.0 to ARR.

In 1.0, he thinks that a primal has us in their thrall because he cannot temper us. He says that he smells the taint of another on us and suggests Garuda, Titan, or Leviathan. In response to our confusion he brings up the line used in ARR as well about being warned by the Paragons of the Godless blessed.

In ARR, it's his summoner who brings that up and Ifrit who flat out denies it, saying he smells nothing.

This suggests a change in the greater story from 1.0 to ARR in regards to possible tempering by Hydaelyn.

[Veloran]

There's also the fact that they deliberately changed Ifrit's dialogue from 1.0 to ARR.

In 1.0, he thinks that a primal has us in their thrall because he cannot temper us. He says that he smells the taint of another on us and suggests Garuda, Titan, or Leviathan. In response to our confusion he brings up the line used in ARR as well about being warned by the Paragons of the Godless blessed.

In ARR, it's his summoner who brings that up and Ifrit who flat out denies it, saying he smells nothing.

This suggests a change in the greater story from 1.0 to ARR in regards to possible tempering by Hydaelyn.

With this, we should take into consideration that the story may have changed more than once. IE that in 1.0 it was tempering, in 2.0 it wasn't, but then later on it was changed back to tempering as the story was reconfigured.

[MikkoAkure]

With this, we should take into consideration that the story may have changed more than once. IE that in 1.0 it was tempering, in 2.0 it wasn't, but then later on it was changed back to tempering as the story was reconfigured.

SE secretly changing their mind again after already making dialogue changes following Yoshi-P taking over doesn't make a compelling argument for tempering.

[Veloran]

SE secretly changing their mind again after already making dialogue changes following Yoshi-P taking over doesn't make a compelling argument for tempering.

It's not exactly a secret though. We can see the story changed significantly from ARR to ShB. Really after 3.0 was when the presentation of Hydaelyn shifted away from true goddess towards primal.

[Cilia]

It's not exactly a secret though. We can see the story changed significantly from ARR to ShB. Really after 3.0 was when the presentation of Hydaelyn shifted away from true goddess towards primal.

Making that argument essentially means any argument is meaningless, since the writers can retcon (change their minds about) any given thing in the story at any juncture. There are a lot of things in dialogue that don't necessarily fit with what we're told later down the line (like Lahabrea calling the Echo a "bothersome anomaly within the aether," when the reality explained later is that it's a form of ancestral memory he should absolutely be aware of. Which is true?).

Point is, we have to take what's been told / explained to us in-game as truth until we get "revelations" (retcons) that contradict what came before. As it stands Ifrit and his priest's account of the PC's tempering status is the only concrete information we have; everything else is interpretation. As such we have to operate on the assumption the PC is not tempered by Hydaelyn (or any other primal for that matter) until it's proved that's the case, since things are false until proven true (not the other way around). Making a conspiracy theorist string corkboard, and then claiming your ideas are obviously the truth because they can't be disproven, doesn't exactly make a compelling argument (Re: Russell's teapot).

... in my opinion, anyway.