The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

[AlexionSkyllark]

As per the title.

Ever since I first heard about the splitting of the world into the source of its fourteen shards, these questions have been kicking around in my mind non-stop. Was this event intentional? was it an accident? Or an unavoidable consequence of something? What are the SPECIFICS of this event, aetherologically speaking?

Was it really only Hydaelyn that was responsible for the sundering? or did Zodiark also play a part in it? What about the other parties involved, the convocation and Venat's secret sect? Are they also responsible in some more direct way?

So many questions bubbling in my mind, I really would like to hear your take in all this
So what you guys think?

[Cleretic]

From what Emet-Selch says, it was an intentional part of Hydaelyn's construction and powerset; she divides, that is the point.

HOWEVER! We need to remember that Emet-Selch is a big fat liar about many things, and is actually most frequently incorrect about Hydaelyn. Which is fair enough--he literally was not there for any part of Hydaelyn's formulation, so he doesn't know anything about the intentions, only the results--but it means that we can't really trust him one bit on this.

Personally, I've been reading it that it was sort of an inevitable consequence of the clash. Picture the wrestling moves with so much impact that they break a table; Hydaelyn probably did that... and maybe did it a few times.

[MellowMink]

From what Emet-Selch says, it was an intentional part of Hydaelyn's construction and powerset; she divides, that is the point.

HOWEVER! We need to remember that Emet-Selch is a big fat liar about many things, and is actually most frequently incorrect about Hydaelyn. Which is fair enough--he literally was not there for any part of Hydaelyn's formulation, so he doesn't know anything about the intentions, only the results--but it means that we can't really trust him one bit on this.

Emet-Selch also literally tells us that he and many of the other Ascians were tempered by Zodiark, so he's mentally incapable of not being biased to some extent; lots of people seem to forget that.

Of course, we could have been unknowingly tempered (not merely protected) by Hydaelyn at some point but in a more subtle manner, which would be pretty spooky.

[Cleretic]

Of course, we could have been unknowingly tempered (not merely protected) by Hydaelyn at some point but in a more subtle manner, which would be pretty spooky.

The notion that we're tempered was debunked literally, like, three sentences after it was ever suggested. It is an argument with zero grounding beyond 'wouldn't it be neat if'*.

I made a video that explicitly talks about this (as well as other details about the Blessing of Light), but in short: Ifrit, the second most temper-happy primal we've ever met (which i would say definitely qualifies him as a subject matter expert in a story like this), specifically shoots down the Amal'jaa priest's allegation that we're tempered--which is something with exceptional weight, given how rare it is that primals go against their summoners. And for the record, we already had the Blessing of Light and an awakened Echo at this point, because we already had a crystal of light. But if you consider Ifrit directly saying this is wrong to be an inapplicable source, it then has to be approached as an angle of 'how would the writers hint at this and what opportunities would they be taking'. And there's just no hints, despite ample potential setup: Emet-Selch was the guy that outright says Hydaelyn's a primal and that Zodiark tempered him, and he wouldn't have passed up an opportunity to shake our faith; Elidibus also has the subject of tempering come up around him and would have had every reason to announce it to save face; Fandaniel is wielding tempering as a weapon and had a perfect chance to screw with us.

On the other side of the morality scale, Y'shtola, Urianger, and G'raha Tia are all qualified experts in exactly these fields, and are all equipped with the knowledge that Hydaelyn is a primal and now knowledge of what the symptoms of tempering actually are. To a lesser but still significant extent, we also have Alisaie not just studying how to cure tempering, but specifically having the first cases be focused on an overabundance of light aether, which hypothetical Hydaelyn tempering would be. And not a single one of them says anything about this possibility, not even in 5.55 when every single one of them is in the same room directly discussing the WoL's relationship with Hydaelyn.

All of those characters on both sides of the story are set up as 'smart people whose beliefs and hypotheses should be considered in some way trustworthy and accurate', and yet none of them have even so much as hinted at the possibility that Hydaelyn has tempered us. Almost like the thing Ifrit said way back in 2.0 was accurate. And frankly, if you can't trust 'a direct statement denying this and a refusal to acknowledge the subject by every form of subject matter expert the game's had', I'm not actually sure how the game could tell you this isn't true. A twist like that needs some seeds sown before the sudden payoff, and they just don't exist.

*And incidentally, no, it wouldn't really be neat or spooky. Outside of the shock value, it either does nothing or hollows out the entire experience of the game thus far. And neither of those are fun or worth it.

Apologies for coming off a bit strong here, but as an enormous lorehound, this is a real bugbear of mine. It's not just a theory with no evidence, it's a theory with negative evidence, because it was specifically shut down.

[Vyrerus]

it's a theory with negative evidence, because it was specifically shut down.

It actually doesn't have any negative evidence though. Ifrit's line is in regards to the Echo. Which he is right about, but he may just not be able to perceive Hydaelyn's tempering (consider that most of the world doesn't know that Hydaelyn is just a primal). It's also worth noting that Ifrit telling his priest how it is isn't all that drastic a thing, because the priest still worships Ifrit as god. The Primals give commands out to their followers and the followers obey often. They're not completely slaves to their summoner's will. Not really sure where you've got that idea from, exactly.

As for why other villains or our allies haven't given many big hints or dropped the bomb yet... I imagine if the WoL being tempered is a thing, it's something that's going to be a minor inconvenience at worst, which will be overhyped by the ally cast. The villains I imagine don't care so much, because it doesn't change much for their conflict with us.

But anyway, I imagine the Scions wouldn't want to give voice to the possibility because it'd be too painful a reality for them to realize. Imagine the greatest hero you know, the person you respect above all others... is that way through primal compulsion, at least partially. Would they have been the hero they are now without the compulsion? Have we been accepting a necessary evil as yet another burden? In this manner you could say that Y'shtola asking about your relationship with Hydaelyn as a seed or hint to start thinking about whether you are/were Tempered to Hydaelyn. You can also take the cave painting scene that shows Hydaelyn colored individuals beneath her, possibly representing her followers as tempered as a hint too.

Also other things in this post that I'm going to nitpick... The first cases of actual Tempering that were cured were Earth aspected aether(still inclined towards stasis but whatever). The light aspected Sineater turning sickness was the proving ground because it was similar to Tempering. It wasn't Tempering. And the symptoms to Tempering vary depending on the Tempered individuals length of being tempered, how strong their soul is, what elemental aspect it's inclined towards, what race they are(Sylphs turned purple, yo), and who tempered them. I don't think we actually have any bonafide know it alls, though our Scion Accomplices are still the authorities in the field.

All I'm really getting at though, is that it could still go either way. There's enough wiggle room if they want to pull it off. Won't make or break the story for me, and I doubt it'd be a surprise to many people if it were the case. I'm sure if they did reveal the WoL to be Tempered, it would merely be for making the Scions lament how much of a burden we face in holding the world on our shoulders, and how they'll have to rectify that someday in someway, somehow. uwu boohoo

[Anonymoose]

The why is the big one for me.

It's been pretty consistent so far that Hydaelyn's defeating blow to Zodiark shattered the fabric of reality with him. (At least locally, around the planet itself.) Hydaelyn, Minfilia, Ardbert, Elidibus, and Emet-Selch are all on the same page. Granted we do have another big SECRET OF THE STAR left...

My best guess so far for the how is rooted in a line by Emet-Selch:

As a counterbalance to Zodiark, Hydaelyn was created with the power to enervate Her foe. This singular ability strikes not at such banal things as flesh, but everything that defines the target, diluting its existence.

If Zodiark were currently the Will of the Planet, perhaps it's always been as easy as that shattering him shatters the planet. It was one of my biggest questions this whole time: if we're to save the world as we know it, and Hydaelyn is currently the Will of the Planet, what can happen to her without undermining our desired outcome?

I've come up with a few ways out of that, including Venat's self-sacrifice in the event of Zodiark's defeat (counter-weight without a weight to counter becomes the weight itself). But we'll see where it goes. Some expect a fusion dance that we have to beat. (I'd rather see a fusion dance that defeats The Sound, thus fulfilling the mission of Amaurot and redeeming the legacy of the Ancients before entrusting the world to sundered man. The Warrior of Light, as Azem before them, blazing the impossible third path that brings everyone together.)

Some even expect a "New Mothercrystal" from a fusion is how we get out of this. (Which is clever in its simplicity; I can't even figure out what's preventing me from embracing it just yet.) And then some from connect that back to Elidibus's ambiguous hint (in some languages) that Hydaelyn would re-gain her own original form along with everything else...

But WHY... now there's a question. A lot hinges on it, including whether people who rooted for Hydaelyn (myself included) feel alienated by that framing. In Japanese, one of Venat's compatriots phrases the line about "if we don't do this, we're as doomed as we were before Zodiark" by saying, "if we remain as we are" and that really made my brain itch.

It could just mean, "if nothing changes," but what if it's literal?

What if there was no way to stop the Final Days under conditions of creation magicks being possible? What if it was sundering or oblivion?

EDIT: Whoever liked this before I even removed the EDIT INCOMING, I really appreciate your faith in me but are you sure?

[RyuDragnier]

If Zodiark were currently the Will of the Planet, perhaps it's always been as easy as that shattering him shatters the planet. It was one of my biggest questions this whole time: if we're to save the world as we know it, and Hydaelyn is currently the Will of the Planet, what can happen to her without undermining our desired outcome?

I've come up with a few ways out of that, including Venat's self-sacrifice in the event of Zodiark's defeat (counter-weight without a weight to counter becomes the weight itself). But we'll see where it goes. Some expect a fusion dance that we have to beat. (I'd rather see a fusion dance that defeats The Sound, thus fulfilling the mission of Amaurot and redeeming the legacy of the Ancients before entrusting the world to sundered man. The Warrior of Light, as Azem before them, blazing the impossible third path that brings everyone together.)

Some even expect a "New Mothercrystal" from a fusion is how we get out of this. (Which is clever in its simplicity; I can't even figure out what's preventing me from embracing it just yet.) And then some from connect that back to Elidibus's ambiguous hint (in some languages) that Hydaelyn would re-gain her own original form along with everything else...

But WHY... now there's a question. A lot hinges on it, including whether people who rooted for Hydaelyn (myself included) feel alienated by that framing. In Japanese, one of Venat's compatriots phrases the line about "if we don't do this, we're as doomed as we were before Zodiark" by saying, "if we remain as we are" and that really made my brain itch.

It could just mean, "if nothing changes," but what if it's literal?

What if there was no way to stop the Final Days under conditions of creation magicks being possible? What if it was sundering or oblivion?

EDIT: Whoever liked this before I even removed the EDIT INCOMING, I really appreciate your faith in me but are you sure?

Hydaelyn likely will dissipate and be replaced during said dissipation by another for the new Will of the Planet. if you're wondering who, we have one G'raha Tia, who quite literally was linked to the Crystal Tower for centuries and has the knowledge in a younger body thanks to our shenanigans in Shadowbringers. He would have the ability to serve as a new Crystal allowing the world to continue on, having the knowledge and the experience needed to pull it off. As for Venat's compatriot, who gives that phrase, it's very likely they had the same ideas as Azem, or they were told by Azem that dealing with Zodiark does not deal with the root of the issue, the source of the Sound. Something that is likely going to have changed by the end of 6.0.

[Theodric]

At this point, I'm very much expecting a third party entity to ultimately be to blame for the entire predicament. Potentially the very same entity that caused the Sound. The writers have, thankfully, been pretty clear at establishing the nuance of the situation. Neither Zodiark or Hydaelyn are necessarily 'good' or 'evil'. It's all very much a matter of perspective. So, too, does that apply to the Ancients and the Ascians, the Sundered and the Unsundered. They all have their own goals, dreams, desires and a will to live.

I also suspect that the Warrior of Light will go the way of Azem and seek to find a 'third way' when it comes to solving the plight that is the Sound. Especially if the Final Days are indeed returning for a second time in the same form as before. Or, alternatively, perhaps the story will involve Hydaelyn and Zodiark being brought together in a state of balance - given that the Sundering has been described as an 'unstable state' by the writers themselves in the past.

Whether Venat is an antagonist or not, I suppose, depends entirely on a few key factors such as whether the Sundering was accidental or intentional.

My own personal hope is for the story to set aside differences, acknowledge each side as having understandable motivations and then have everyone come together to beat the Sound which may or may not be a Lavos or Jenova type entity in typical JRPG fashion.

[Lauront]

At this point, I'm very much expecting a third party entity to ultimately be to blame for the entire predicament. Potentially the very same entity that caused the Sound. The writers have, thankfully, been pretty clear at establishing the nuance of the situation. Neither Zodiark or Hydaelyn are necessarily 'good' or 'evil'. It's all very much a matter of perspective. So, too, does that apply to the Ancients and the Ascians, the Sundered and the Unsundered. They all have their own goals, dreams, desires and a will to live.

I also suspect that the Warrior of Light will go the way of Azem and seek to find a 'third way' when it comes to solving the plight that is the Sound. Especially if the Final Days are indeed returning for a second time in the same form as before. Or, alternatively, perhaps the story will involve Hydaelyn and Zodiark being brought together in a state of balance - given that the Sundering has been described as an 'unstable state' by the writers themselves in the past.

Whether Venat is an antagonist or not, I suppose, depends entirely on a few key factors such as whether the Sundering was accidental or intentional.

My own personal hope is for the story to set aside differences, acknowledge each side as having understandable motivations and then have everyone come together to beat the Sound which may or may not be a Lavos or Jenova type entity in typical JRPG fashion.

Pretty much my hopes as well. I think in her faction's case, well intentioned but perhaps misplaced concerns were exploited to create an opening for the crisis's originating source to reassert itself. I have a hunch that it used that as an opportunity to take over Zodiark, once weakened, and in this final battle will attempt to do the same again but not just to him. Stories verging on how more potent beings such as the ancients could only but be destroyed or "deserved" it or somesuch are unlikely to appeal much to me, particularly when races like dragons seem to elude such treatment. Not like we have to sunder the elder dragons because of the great power their eyes hold. If age old grievances could be put aside between man and these alien, and very potent beings, so too can reconciliation be achieved between unsundered and the sundered fragments of their race.

I mean to be fair the convocation did also have time It can just be argued they used it poorly. The calamity of the unsundered world wasn't an immediate "Snap now were all dead" we know from “Debate and Discourse” that there was a large enough time for even the citizens of Amaurot to have lengthy discussions on the direction the world was heading. I previously made a post under the "Zodiark Good or Evil" thread but to sum it up is the fact that the situation was far too complex to binary define who was right and who was wrong. Amaurot had hours to spend but focused too much on their play book of parley that they went into overtime and Zodiark was the most realistic option to successfully save their people (To them of course)

We know that they researched the origin of the crisis and sought means to address it. While one can speculate that their time was used poorly, it's not really confirmed one way or another, anywhere, to my knowledge. At the time it was occurring overseas, and already then they were devising a solution to it. The situation may well have ramped up at an exponential pace. Considering the unique nature of the crisis, they were probably taking a very cautious approach to how to resolve it, because it could exploit their very mental faculties and let their innate powers run amok once it had done so. It is very possible that the crisis, if manufactured, was made to look as natural and difficult to separate from natural phenomena as possible, and only to trigger at the right moment - certainly, the fact that Fandaniel can reproduce this crisis even without creation magicks being available to the sundered, should raise eyebrows.

Your question leads me back to something else I personally hope Endwalker answers. That being WHY did Venat HAVE to be Hydaelyn? She was basically the "CEO of Hydaelyn" so why give herself up instead of leading her group after Hydaelyn comes into existence? The quest "Beneath the surface" shows that one of her compatriots implores her to not sacrifice herself and instead choose one of them. She immediately shuts that down by saying.

Venat
"You know as well as I that but few support our cause. Far fewer than they who place their faith in Zodiark.
If Hydaelyn is to stand a chance of opposing Him, I am the only one who might suffice as Her heart."

Why was Venat so special? Why did it have to be her and no one else?

It's why I think they may be aiming for a Yunalesca reference with her - similar belief in her methods and an insistence that her champion adhere to them. As opposed to them doing something like turning her into an outright villain, which so far I do not see as plausible.

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

It's why I think they may be aiming for a Yunalesca reference with her - similar belief in her methods and an insistence that her champion adhere to them. As opposed to them doing something like turning her into an outright villain, which so far I do not see as plausible.

That's pretty sound and something I agree with.

In my eyes one of the main messages across a lot of final fantasy games is that even if people have "good" or "morally sound" motivations in their eyes, the actions they take is what defines it. Your endgame can be the most seen as righteous whether its restoring a world you have lost, avenging a loved one, or wanting to bring world peace but when your balance is all out of wack and you start punishing the descendants of the perpetrators, try to rule with an iron fist or start committing mass genocide is when you are painted as "a villain".

My personal expectation that has been echoed throughout the forum but I hope comes to pass nonetheless is that Hydaelyn/Venat tried their best for the people and the world they loved. Just like parents in real life the mother crystal wasn't right 100 percent of the time and didn't keep it 100 percent honest with the WoL but she still shielded us from Ultima and she cares at least a little bit.

(Unless we learn that people piloting the hearts of the Oldest "primals" are conscious during the entire time and she deliberately sundered the world knowingly that would be kinda suspect)

I'm sure we'll find out in Endwalker. I feel like for the past 2 years people have been making a lot of assumptions based on only half of the information.

But also isn't that the fun of discussion? Even if were all completely off base just getting to chat with other people about a game we all love is fulfilling in itself!