It's time to hire dedicated Tank an Healer devs!

[Claire_Pendragon]

What is the name of the fallacy in my argument?

asking in bad faith are we? Any reasoning can be logically incorrect, and pointed out, w/o the need of pointing out the "name" of the fallacy it falls under. You ask in hopes that if I werent to know the name of the fallacy, it would mean something along the lines of; you're not logically incorrect, or i must not know what a fallacy is, or dont trust this persons opinion, they dont know the name of the fallacy. (i might be wrong, but ur wording suggests to me otherwise) but to humor you, you were saying "A lack of creative and diverse class concepts are not what's inhibiting more variety in healer gameplay." Which is partly true, and partly false. The part thats true, is what you already said. "The Devs stick to a mold." And anon was partly true, and partly false, in that sticking to a mold prevents creativity he's referring to.
So to answer the question in detail, id say its a combination of a few fallacies, but in part. You're somewhat using the logic of "If not A, must be B" but not quite...
You're also looking at something thats AB, and saying B isnt apart of it, because A comes first. Even when the subject matter is about B existing at all. But for this second one, this is mostly reliant on being incorrect about information, rather than incorrect logic, but it still has a bit of that as well.
So I'd say its partly "Formal" and partly "Propositional".
You also sort of use False Equivalency "somewhat", but in a situation thats up to interpretation, so it wasnt actually the part I was referring to. (Which is when u listed the 4 healers as what you see them as in your mind, but also asserted its the truth about them, which would make it act as evidence for your next statement of "I don't think a lack of creative and diverse class concepts are what's inhibiting more variety in healer gameplay."

Right.
Yes.
So... you agree with me then?

Partly. Which was clarified in my statement. Half of what youre saying is correct, half of what he is saying is correct. But context mattered.

They are this way because they are intentionally designed to be, not because the class concepts lacks space for creative expression.

There is no functional difference from "intentionally made to fit in a mold" and "Intentionally not made that way".
He's asking SE to "intentionally go outside of that mold (make them this way)". And your reply is "Bruh, they are staying in the mold intentionally"

[Jeeqbit]

I don't mind so much that it is, but there are other ways for a job to feel set apart. That could be in how they approach DPS and variations there, in how they enhance their own abilities, in how they buff the party

Differences in how they buff the party, like Divine Veil being triggered by a heal, Nascent Glint healing a party member through attacks, using cover or intervention on someone and buffing it with other mitigation, buffing Shake It Off with other mitigation to shield the party.

Differences in how their enhance their own abilities, like buffing TBN with Shadow Wall so it can absorb things like Doom and knockbacks or combining Thrill of Battle with Equilibrium or Nascent Flash to take advantage of the 20% healing increase.

WAR felt more like a DPS to play as a tank and relied more on its big HP pool and was less a traditional tank, but a beefy DPS who could hold aggro. With berserk it used to come with a little bit of a risk/reward too.

I liked that WAR had a bigger HP pool instead because that was a unique thing about it. There is still Thrill of Battle but having a bigger HP pool was an interesting feature of WAR that could make it better in some situations because of how HP scales compared to % mitigation.

DRK felt more technical, because much of your focus was on resource management and how you enhance your abilities and keeping that resource up so it required more care and forethought. Which I think kinda worked with its soul eating aspect, because you use a part of your self (your aether reserves) to cause damage, self heal or defend but you replenish those reserves through absorption.

Buffing attacks with Dark Arts was fine but to be fair everyone meme'd it so much and described the class as just "dark arts spam" that it gave SE little choice but to change it. As a community we can't now say they shouldn't have removed Dark Arts when as a community we meme'd it so much.

Edge of Shadow spam is not a lot different to Dark Arts except it doesn't buff anything and is an attack of its own. There is still some managing of MP because you have to save 3,000 MP in case you need TBN while not overcapping, but it requires nowhere near the amount of concentration that it did in HW and this management becomes something you can do in your sleep once you get used to it.

[Saefinn]

Differences in how they buff the party, like Divine Veil being triggered by a heal, Nascent Glint healing a party member through attacks, using cover or intervention on someone and buffing it with other mitigation, buffing Shake It Off with other mitigation to shield the party.

Differences in how their enhance their own abilities, like buffing TBN with Shadow Wall so it can absorb things like Doom and knockbacks or combining Thrill of Battle with Equilibrium or Nascent Flash to take advantage of the 20% healing increase.

How they buff their party, I was more in mind of like how DNC does it or how AST does it, as examples. Differences in how they enhance themselves I was thinking more along the lines of the Dark Arts mechanic or to a lesser extent Eukrasia on SGE. Or an example from another game, FFXI's SCH, which had stratagems. Stuff that takes up a section of your kit. Also I wouldn't consider Divine Veil and Nascent Glint to be healing tools, not buffing tools, that said, those are aspects that do contribute some of their uniqueness, hence I don't think they're fully homogenized.

Not that I am saying they should get what DNC or AST has or anything like that, but are examples of systems that buff parties that give a unique feel compared to other jobs in the role.

Buffing attacks with Dark Arts was fine but to be fair everyone meme'd it so much and described the class as just "dark arts spam" that it gave SE little choice but to change it. As a community we can't now say they shouldn't have removed Dark Arts when as a community we meme'd it so much.

Edge of Shadow spam is not a lot different to Dark Arts except it doesn't buff anything and is an attack of its own. There is still some managing of MP because you have to save 3,000 MP in case you need TBN while not overcapping, but it requires nowhere near the amount of concentration that it did in HW and this management becomes something you can do in your sleep once you get used to it.

I didn't meme on it and I praised it as a job mechanic, so I'm gonna go all out and say for sure they shouldn't have removed it. There is MP management, but it feels closer to what PLD's MP management used to be like and how it benefits from MP feels way more limited. And as you say, it requires nowhere near the amount of concentration that it did, but having to think about it was an element I liked. Stormblood DRK required less concentration and MP management was easier than in HW and I thought that was the compromise in design to help make it more manageable for more people. But no, I've tried to enjoyed new DRK, but it's a bit meh for me, I don't fully hate it, but it still leaves a lot to be desired for me. I think the main positive things about it that are nice is that the Blackest Night mechanic is a cool idea (and SGE is getting something similar), Living Shadow is neat and the job flows well. But I can say that I find as near interesting to play.

[ItMe]

snip

Ah, hmm...
That's a good point.

asking in bad faith are we? Any reasoning can be logically incorrect, and pointed out, w/o the need of pointing out the "name" of the fallacy it falls under.

Ah, when you said my argument was fallacious I misread your meaning and though you were saying it incorporated a logical fallacy, not simply that you thought my logic was bad.

He's asking SE to "intentionally go outside of that mold (make them this way)". And your reply is "Bruh, they are staying in the mold intentionally"

Not quite.
They said

I don’t understand why they missed a golden opportunity to go ham on making each job having game play completely different with hardly any similarities from each other. In other games that had multiple healers, you would have your standard cleric/priest then from there you might get a healer that uses a sword, blunt weapon, cannons, or just whatever they could come up with to keep a strong diversity in gameplay. We could’ve had that same energy across the current tanks and healers, easily. I really don’t like this growing obsession to keep the game at Satasha level even though we’re going into level 90… I feel like it’s just holding creativity back.

He is asking SE to go outside the mold but feels they're being held back.
I added "kinda sounds like you're suggesting they're being held back because of [A], and maybe they are, but I'm not sure it's because of [A]."

[Claire_Pendragon]

you were saying it incorporated a logical fallacy, not simply that you thought my logic was bad.

"Bad logic" and "incorrect logic" are the same thing. Again, im still inclined to think you're trying to act this way intentionally.

He is asking SE to go outside the mold but feels they're being held back.
I added "kinda sounds like you're suggesting they're being held back because of [A], and maybe they are, but I'm not sure it's because of [A]."

I thought about this, because you did type the words "I think", but within context, it sounds rhetorical, rather than honesty. I also figured, if it was rhetorical, you'd look at my quote, and intentionally try to convince me you honestly werent sure or not. (Based on the context of what you have typed so far. But of course its also possible to phrase things poorly, and to do it rather often, because i know im quite guilty of that myself, and the only remedy i know of, in order to fix it, is to write walls of text, trying to make sure im extra clear. And sometimes im too lazy to write that much)
I cant say i know for certain, but im not inclined to believe you. (Not that it matters or not.) It no longer seems like we're in complete disagreement on the core subject.

In defense of your point of view, and against his, it actually IS possible to have creativity within a mold. But its just waaaaay harder. (and less likely) Which lines up with how SE claims its too hard to balance the healers, even after they were homogenized to the degree that they currently are.

Following your train of thought, the "Mold" is a byproduct of another issue. SE likes to speed up the process of balancing, by making sure everything fits within a calculation, rather than by playstesting. (They DO playtest, and claim to do so a lot. but they did admit to doing little to no playtesting as well before. And they were more honest about what really happens at that time, vs now, where they bend the truth so much, that you need to read between the lines a lot.) So by making everything fit into a mold, its far easier to "balance" (obviously) and to make it fit within calculations, to save time/money on play testing. But its STILL a byproduct of another issue, which would be players themselves, and "The common denominator". which yoshida seems to keep implying, based on saying the design is for casual/new players. So the "mold" is designed based on "the common denominator". And the need for a "mold" is based on wanting to save resources.

Considering SEs continued "need to save on resources" mentality, its very unlikely they will maximize the potential in the molds. BUT, they still need to come up with flashy new toys, to sell expansions, so who knows. Using FFXI as an example, when the reigns of the game were handed over, a lot of things changed, and design philosophy, so its possible to see more uniqueness in the future. (Personally, I think we'll reach a point where no new jobs come out, and so they need to "reuse" old jobs, in a way that excites players like a new job does. This could be fixes, or it could be something's drastically different. I couldnt guess what, and cant say it will even happen for sure.)

[ItMe]

Again, im still inclined to think you're trying to act this way intentionally.

If others are misreading me as engaging in bad faith arguments then I haven't done enough to build enough good will around here.
Please give me the benefit of the doubt on this one. I'm not here to cause trouble.

[Claire_Pendragon]

If others are misreading me as engaging in bad faith arguments then I haven't done enough to build enough good will around here.
Please give me the benefit of the doubt on this one. I'm not here to cause trouble.

I dont believe youre out to cause trouble. I also dont think ill of you, despite saying i dont think youre acting in good faith. (I dont really care if you are or arent honestly) I also dont remember what ppl say on here, and even if i did, sometimes ppl are right, sometimes theyre wrong, sometimes they think clearly, sometimes they dont. I know i sure havent always thought clearly when on the forums.

I probably come off as aggressive, and if so, i apologize. Not saying I wasnt aggressive, just that I shouldnt be. Any aggression I may have shown, is due to the frustration of the subject matter, and similar issues over decades in MMOs, and sometimes non MMOs. I also didnt care about the fallacy part. I mentioned it, to point something out i feel might not be noticed in the arguments logic. Which was to indirectly bring up the argument about "thinking outside the box(mold)".

As an unrelated note, but semi related; I thought "Whats the difference of having a limitation for making a class/job, vs having a mold to fit a class/job into?" I thought about this while typing to you. I knew there was a difference, but didnt know how to articulate it, or measure it with any metrics. In the end, I came to the conclusion the difference is the end goal. Trying to "fit inside a mold" mostly focuses on trying NOT to go outside the box. Where as working with limitation, you try to break outside the box, by unconventional methods. But even by this distinction, theres still room to argue "staying in the mold, still allows one to think outside the box", which is still technically true. In short, it really depends on if the developer really wants to be creative or not. So its not that "molds" are inherently "anti creative", but that the likelihood of molds making "non creative outputs" is very high, but not impossible. (Wrong tool for the job, so to speak. And theres some saying about a Master can work with any tool... or something similar. Both apply)

[Deceptus]

I think one of the largest disconnects is:

They want healers to heal but keep giving all the other jobs so many self heals that healers don't need to heal.

It's what allowed the final fight of a savage tier to be accomplished completely without a healer. What is touted as some of the hardest content in the game, while it was relatively current (same expansion). Let that sink in for a minute.

And if they had a dedicated healer developer they'd see the affect that self heals actually has on healing jobs.

[CrimsonGunner]

at this point in time, i think the reason they don't have a dedicated healer/tank developer is because:

1) they are not able to find people that play the game and stick to being healer/tanks (lets face it, their design don't keep most people playing said role only the true dedicated people that like to suffer aka us stay)
2) even trying to assign someone to be a healer/tank dedicated developer is probably saying as long as he don't have to play said roles in content(cause of reason 1)
3) at this point they probably resent the healer/tank community for always complaining so they don't hire one out of spite XD

just kidding but the overall is probably they cant grasp what makes a good healer job and i guess they don't have even enough examples/references to look at as well as probably they don't have anyone who probably plays the game as a healer and he is a developer to help them work on those stuff so towards an expansion they give healers some thoughtless skills they probably made up in the last minute(looking at you expedite) and some really weird almost near content killing and balance breaking changes (looking at you thin air nerf) and even going one step forward only to go back 2 steps back(looking at you card system with lord/lady being reverted to what players asked only to be heavy rng oriented which ast wished to be more in control/ less rng heavy so basically looking at the card system while waving goodbye at sleeve draw being removed).

if they really listen to their community the least they can do is read those comments and do something about it before breaking the balance they set up in shb before its too late

[Reiryuu]

at this point in time, i think the reason they don't have a dedicated healer/tank developer is because:

1) they are not able to find people that play the game and stick to being healer/tanks (lets face it, their design don't keep most people playing said role only the true dedicated people that like to suffer aka us stay)
2) even trying to assign someone to be a healer/tank dedicated developer is probably saying as long as he don't have to play said roles in content(cause of reason 1)
3) at this point they probably resent the healer/tank community for always complaining so they don't hire one out of spite XD

just kidding but the overall is probably they cant grasp what makes a good healer job and i guess they don't have even enough examples/references to look at as well as probably they don't have anyone who probably plays the game as a healer and he is a developer to help them work on those stuff so towards an expansion they give healers some thoughtless skills they probably made up in the last minute(looking at you expedite) and some really weird almost near content killing and balance breaking changes (looking at you thin air nerf) and even going one step forward only to go back 2 steps back(looking at you card system with lord/lady being reverted to what players asked only to be heavy rng oriented which ast wished to be more in control/ less rng heavy so basically looking at the card system while waving goodbye at sleeve draw being removed).

if they really listen to their community the least they can do is read those comments and do something about it before breaking the balance they set up in shb before its too late

I am pretty sure around Gordias time they mentioned that when testing damage for phases of bosses and that, they use invulnerability dev tools to save time. I am not sure if that is still the case, but... I have to assume it is because habits like that are hard to break especially if you're pressed for time. Of course, someone can correct me if I'm wrong or misremembering.