It's time to hire dedicated Tank an Healer devs!

[ItMe]

snip

Ah, hmm...
That's a good point.

asking in bad faith are we? Any reasoning can be logically incorrect, and pointed out, w/o the need of pointing out the "name" of the fallacy it falls under.

Ah, when you said my argument was fallacious I misread your meaning and though you were saying it incorporated a logical fallacy, not simply that you thought my logic was bad.

He's asking SE to "intentionally go outside of that mold (make them this way)". And your reply is "Bruh, they are staying in the mold intentionally"

Not quite.
They said

I don’t understand why they missed a golden opportunity to go ham on making each job having game play completely different with hardly any similarities from each other. In other games that had multiple healers, you would have your standard cleric/priest then from there you might get a healer that uses a sword, blunt weapon, cannons, or just whatever they could come up with to keep a strong diversity in gameplay. We could’ve had that same energy across the current tanks and healers, easily. I really don’t like this growing obsession to keep the game at Satasha level even though we’re going into level 90… I feel like it’s just holding creativity back.

He is asking SE to go outside the mold but feels they're being held back.
I added "kinda sounds like you're suggesting they're being held back because of [A], and maybe they are, but I'm not sure it's because of [A]."

[Claire_Pendragon]

you were saying it incorporated a logical fallacy, not simply that you thought my logic was bad.

"Bad logic" and "incorrect logic" are the same thing. Again, im still inclined to think you're trying to act this way intentionally.

He is asking SE to go outside the mold but feels they're being held back.
I added "kinda sounds like you're suggesting they're being held back because of [A], and maybe they are, but I'm not sure it's because of [A]."

I thought about this, because you did type the words "I think", but within context, it sounds rhetorical, rather than honesty. I also figured, if it was rhetorical, you'd look at my quote, and intentionally try to convince me you honestly werent sure or not. (Based on the context of what you have typed so far. But of course its also possible to phrase things poorly, and to do it rather often, because i know im quite guilty of that myself, and the only remedy i know of, in order to fix it, is to write walls of text, trying to make sure im extra clear. And sometimes im too lazy to write that much)
I cant say i know for certain, but im not inclined to believe you. (Not that it matters or not.) It no longer seems like we're in complete disagreement on the core subject.

In defense of your point of view, and against his, it actually IS possible to have creativity within a mold. But its just waaaaay harder. (and less likely) Which lines up with how SE claims its too hard to balance the healers, even after they were homogenized to the degree that they currently are.

Following your train of thought, the "Mold" is a byproduct of another issue. SE likes to speed up the process of balancing, by making sure everything fits within a calculation, rather than by playstesting. (They DO playtest, and claim to do so a lot. but they did admit to doing little to no playtesting as well before. And they were more honest about what really happens at that time, vs now, where they bend the truth so much, that you need to read between the lines a lot.) So by making everything fit into a mold, its far easier to "balance" (obviously) and to make it fit within calculations, to save time/money on play testing. But its STILL a byproduct of another issue, which would be players themselves, and "The common denominator". which yoshida seems to keep implying, based on saying the design is for casual/new players. So the "mold" is designed based on "the common denominator". And the need for a "mold" is based on wanting to save resources.

Considering SEs continued "need to save on resources" mentality, its very unlikely they will maximize the potential in the molds. BUT, they still need to come up with flashy new toys, to sell expansions, so who knows. Using FFXI as an example, when the reigns of the game were handed over, a lot of things changed, and design philosophy, so its possible to see more uniqueness in the future. (Personally, I think we'll reach a point where no new jobs come out, and so they need to "reuse" old jobs, in a way that excites players like a new job does. This could be fixes, or it could be something's drastically different. I couldnt guess what, and cant say it will even happen for sure.)

[ItMe]

Again, im still inclined to think you're trying to act this way intentionally.

If others are misreading me as engaging in bad faith arguments then I haven't done enough to build enough good will around here.
Please give me the benefit of the doubt on this one. I'm not here to cause trouble.

[Claire_Pendragon]

If others are misreading me as engaging in bad faith arguments then I haven't done enough to build enough good will around here.
Please give me the benefit of the doubt on this one. I'm not here to cause trouble.

I dont believe youre out to cause trouble. I also dont think ill of you, despite saying i dont think youre acting in good faith. (I dont really care if you are or arent honestly) I also dont remember what ppl say on here, and even if i did, sometimes ppl are right, sometimes theyre wrong, sometimes they think clearly, sometimes they dont. I know i sure havent always thought clearly when on the forums.

I probably come off as aggressive, and if so, i apologize. Not saying I wasnt aggressive, just that I shouldnt be. Any aggression I may have shown, is due to the frustration of the subject matter, and similar issues over decades in MMOs, and sometimes non MMOs. I also didnt care about the fallacy part. I mentioned it, to point something out i feel might not be noticed in the arguments logic. Which was to indirectly bring up the argument about "thinking outside the box(mold)".

As an unrelated note, but semi related; I thought "Whats the difference of having a limitation for making a class/job, vs having a mold to fit a class/job into?" I thought about this while typing to you. I knew there was a difference, but didnt know how to articulate it, or measure it with any metrics. In the end, I came to the conclusion the difference is the end goal. Trying to "fit inside a mold" mostly focuses on trying NOT to go outside the box. Where as working with limitation, you try to break outside the box, by unconventional methods. But even by this distinction, theres still room to argue "staying in the mold, still allows one to think outside the box", which is still technically true. In short, it really depends on if the developer really wants to be creative or not. So its not that "molds" are inherently "anti creative", but that the likelihood of molds making "non creative outputs" is very high, but not impossible. (Wrong tool for the job, so to speak. And theres some saying about a Master can work with any tool... or something similar. Both apply)