Dev Team Feedback - SCH

[glamazon]

They should make fry union universal like rez

[glamazon]

Why do tanks get dps rotations and we don’t? Their primary job is to mitigate not dps and yet….why are they so against giving scholar three dots? Give whm some more lily dps options.

[Shurrikhan]

Why do tanks get dps rotations and we don’t?

To be fair, tanks don't get "DPS rotations" either, unless you cherrypick only the simplest among the DPS for that comparison.

Every tank gets a basic rotationally built spender that consumes exactly half their maximum resource (one third for GNB, come Endwalker).

WAR, GNB, and PLD get a ~30-second alternate combo. GNB just happens to spend 4 buttons on it.

GNB also gets a 1-minute CD-but-on-the-GCD, Sonic Thrust, because that's what passes for exciting once you go Blue.

PLD also gets a further alternating filler combo and a ~1-minute alternate high-priority combo, but its primary resource spending is purely defensive.

DRK gets only a resource-gated Sonic Thrust and a 33.3% second gauge-spender meant to be banked into raid CD burst phases because, well, it's DRK.

[rewd]

To be fair, tanks don't get "DPS rotations" either, unless you cherrypick only the simplest among the DPS for that comparison.

Every tank gets a basic rotationally built spender that consumes exactly half their maximum resource (one third for GNB, come Endwalker).

WAR, GNB, and PLD get a ~30-second alternate combo. GNB just happens to spend 4 buttons on it.

GNB also gets a 1-minute CD-but-on-the-GCD, Sonic Thrust, because that's what passes for exciting once you go Blue.

PLD also gets a further alternating filler combo and a ~1-minute alternate high-priority combo, but its primary resource spending is purely defensive.

DRK gets only a resource-gated Sonic Thrust and a 33.3% second gauge-spender meant to be banked into raid CD burst phases because, well, it's DRK.

To be fair "DPS rotation" in this context means "Rotation with your DPS abilities" and not "Rotation akin to DPS jobs"

[Shurrikhan]

To be fair "DPS rotation" in this context means "Rotation with your DPS abilities" and not "Rotation akin to DPS jobs"

So the 1-2-3 in order to perform the same decision (ST attack), rather than 1-1-1 (in turn ensuring that you lose potency over time if healing needs can't be postponed to after the next combo completion)?

...Can't say I much notice the difference, outside of the increased modularity, but if you really want to lose that bar space, you do you?


Let me be clear: I want more complexity involved in healers' downtime, including by direct offensive means, but a rigid rotation isn't complexity; it's mere bloat and a way to be have one's timing more forced, at the best, or more dependent upon coincidental timing or Speed tiers, in the more average case.

[Halfgeeek]

The biggest thing I don't get with the EW SCH capstone is the fact that if devs make it useful to have that group speed boost, it would imply mechanics that rely on it.

But if they do that, then not having a SCH in the party is going to be very punishing.

But if they not balance encounter designs on having grp speed boost, the SCH ability is not important and not required, so why even have a capstone if its not useful?

Speed running?

[Calysto]

Well, NIN's overhaul was an easier change since they didn't need to change entire systems. They basically made Mudras GCDs, like Dances, and separated Shadow Fang from the combo. Monk needed an entirely new system since the old system wasn't working for it anymore. That would need an expansion overhaul.

The question becomes: Are SCH's current systems salvageable, or does it need entirely new ones? I'm leaning toward the latter.

Personally, I'd be okay with losing the Aetherflow system and let Sage have better Aetherflow while Scholar gets something more akin to Mix, or healing Mudras. We can keep the fairies as a more "steady" source of healing while we also play with the Mix mechanic, but everything else Scholar has just really is not working.

That actually sounds nice.

I remember a SquareSoft game called "rudra no hidou" where you had to "verbally" cast your spells with caracters.
And it kinda fits SCH theme with the book/plume weapon.
You could use that with some kind of "spells slots" to prepare 3 (or more) actions
ex :
heal:component is heal
barrier:component is barrier
mana:component is mp
damage:component is damage
time:increase potency but split over time
power:increase potency
party:aoe but reduce potency

-Choose an empty slot
-Weave ogdc to compose up to 3 words (with at least one component).
-Action ready.
-You can prepare another with words that aren't on CD
-Or wait to prepare another big heal in prevision of some mechanics.

And there's so many thing that can be expanded later : new/upgraded slots, new/upgraded words, more words per spell ; "heavier" words

Just for cool point : have these as pet action and the fairy visually write the word in the air so she's involved in the process. Maybe have a few extra words available in exchange for fairy gauge (ex : esuna, raise)

That would be a "new job rework". I think I'd like something like; but probably never going to happen.

[Semirhage]

So the 1-2-3 in order to perform the same decision (ST attack), rather than 1-1-1 (in turn ensuring that you lose potency over time if healing needs can't be postponed to after the next combo completion)?

...Can't say I much notice the difference, outside of the increased modularity, but if you really want to lose that bar space, you do you?


Let me be clear: I want more complexity involved in healers' downtime, including by direct offensive means, but a rigid rotation isn't complexity; it's mere bloat and a way to be have one's timing more forced, at the best, or more dependent upon coincidental timing or Speed tiers, in the more average case.

I 100% agree with this sentiment. My one tiny quibble with it is, while a rigid 3 button rotation with zero decision making is absolutely badly designed bloat, casting one spell over and over and over again somehow manages to be even less fun that -that- terrible design.

[inhaledcorn]

That actually sounds nice.

I remember a SquareSoft game called "rudra no hidou" where you had to "verbally" cast your spells with caracters.
And it kinda fits SCH theme with the book/plume weapon.
You could use that with some kind of "spells slots" to prepare 3 (or more) actions
ex :
heal:component is heal
barrier:component is barrier
mana:component is mp
damage:component is damage
time:increase potency but split over time
power:increase potency
party:aoe but reduce potency

-Choose an empty slot
-Weave ogdc to compose up to 3 words (with at least one component).
-Action ready.
-You can prepare another with words that aren't on CD
-Or wait to prepare another big heal in prevision of some mechanics.

And there's so many thing that can be expanded later : new/upgraded slots, new/upgraded words, more words per spell ; "heavier" words

Just for cool point : have these as pet action and the fairy visually write the word in the air so she's involved in the process. Maybe have a few extra words available in exchange for fairy gauge (ex : esuna, raise)

That would be a "new job rework". I think I'd like something like; but probably never going to happen.

Dude, word mixing sounds dope af! Still fits in with SCH's theme of a battle tactician. The ability to mix words together to get certain "commands" just sounds so cool, even if functionally it is just healing mudras. It feels like I'm not only commanding my forces, but commanding the very Aether to do what I want.

[Shurrikhan]

I 100% agree with this sentiment. My one tiny quibble with it is, while a rigid 3 button rotation with zero decision making is absolutely badly designed bloat, casting one spell over and over and over again somehow manages to be even less fun that -that- terrible design.

I don't think it would be in practice. Keep in mind that 1-2-3 combo cancelled by any other spell attempt would itself be far worse than the old ARR-era 18-second Aero I and 12-second Aero II to juggle alongside Stone II spam, as those at least oblige particular timings but do not backload their punishment if you need to do something else.

A rigid 1-2-3 cycle would be no less dull, as soon as your fingers automate those movements (or one downloads an addon to, when off-stream, automate it for them), but would be tremendously more clunky -- a worst of both worlds.

Compare that, for instance, against a resource gauge whereby each elemental spell WHM casts charges an oGCD spender (all the more usable now that, as of Endwalker, each cast will gives about 1 oGCD of weave-space). You could have a dynamic action which causes successive casts to carry over some upgrading effect to one another until the gauge is depleted or an oGCD spender that grants a further effect (perhaps causing your Stone IV to detonate after formation or Aero II to draw enemies in or the like). While such might, like combos, give additional opportunities that might oblige sequential actions, it'd at least be bankable and choiceful, rather than merely causing you to waste a large part of every trio of casts' effect if you need to interrupt that sequence mid-way.

We have boundless possibilities to draw from to improve healer offensive gameplay, but if there's one direction we could happily skip over, it's rigid combos.