Dark Knight Megathread

[Ryaduera]

I don't think using Reaper for a potential 7.0 template for DRK is a good idea.

Most people here are writing fanfiction at this point. The likelihood of them adopting some idea out of the forums seems strange to me. The bigger question is wether or not the job is fun.. is it? For me it isn't.

The developers and the responsible job designer have to come up with something unique or mildly interesting. I leave everything up to their imagination. Now, they are talented people so I don't see why not.
-snip-
Anyway, I would be happy with almost anything but please don't waste the potential of this job with uninspiring reworks just for the sake of accessibility. That's an excuse to avoid work where it's needed.

While I agree it's basically fanfiction, saying the devs don't get anything out of it is not accurate. While they will certainly not implement any player-made changes for very obvious reasons, they can look at a generalization and see what is consistent in the players ideas of what makes the job more fun. Everyones individual solution has a niche that fits their own fantasy of what they want from the job but they all might have something in common that shows what players are craving from the job design that we they players aren't quite able to articulate by saying we don't like it. Saying people putting their own ideas in the ring is a waste of time just has no backing since players doing so provides more feedback to the dev team than "x is not fun I don't like it." The players are the ones experiencing it the most and are able to find the kinks the easiest. That's why there's always a balance patch on x.1

For example most proposed changes address either a lack in GCD's or put some thought into resource management, meaning those are the two areas where something is lacking to make the gameplay more interesting. It's important the devs know where the issue is in a more exact format than being told something is bad. "Why do they want these specific GCD's? What about the resource management do they think is missing? How can we fix it properly within our image of the game and the class?" Those are the questions we want them asking themselves rather than directing generalized statements of discontentment. "What is it you don't like about it" and "what would you do to fix it" are both incredibly helpful questions for devs of any project, not just video games, can and in fact should ask. Project managers in all fields ask both of these questions to their clientele, colleagues, and subbordinates. At least, if it's one worth working for and supporting.

[Shin96]

...

People ask for many different things. What's more valueable is straight-up saying what sucks about this job.

For me everything sucks about this job. I don't care how strong it is specifically, if I was in the mood of dealing more damage I'd play a DPS. At least with Ninja I mostly end up being top player in my party.

Get rid off the current Dark Arts design. Introduce the older DA lite. Don't make it too punishing on the player but essentially it unpacks different attacks with each use while you go with your MP combo. Add a dot to spice things up, I mean GNB did that in addition to an AoE DoT. Add a 4th combo similiar to Storm's Eye with a different property attached to it, i.e. a small amount of MP regen in exchange for getting attacked. Blood Weapon should have charges while giving us skill speed to enhance the flair of your base combo. You could also add HP regen to it as a special property. Abyssal Drain needs a comeback into your AoE rotation as well.

Delirium needs a change. No more stacks or IR knock-off. Go back to the drawing board and demolish 5.0 DRK. I have more words to use for this rework, but it would get me banned on this forum. Anyway, if they cannot give us meaningful or interesting gameplay, at least give us back the edginess that's sorely missing. Now we have Reaper which basically obliterates DRK's appeal. At this point it would have made more sense to delete this job in its entirety than giving us enhanced Unmend for a lack of a better term.

In my eyes, this job is compromised. It's in a dying state with a lack of life support. It basically lost all flair and style while giving its unique aspects to every other tank. You have virtually no-self sustain. Remind me why I would pick this tank if not to make my life harder.

[Ryaduera]

snip.

Both questions are equally as valuable, but seeing as how you criticized one of those very questions and then proceeded to answer it here has me very confused as to why you want others to stop making their own suggestions as well. All opinions are valid and have the same goal; make DRK fun again

[Shin96]

Both questions are equally as valuable, but seeing as how you criticized one of those very questions and then proceeded to answer it here has me very confused as to why you want others to stop making their own suggestions as well. All opinions are valid and have the same goal; make DRK fun again

Because alot of them are just plain basic. It's the same old of what we have right now. Either fix it or screw it; I choose the latter.

The fact we ultimately ended up with this new iteration and its lack of essentially everything, either proves the devs don't care, or they just have nothing better to expand upon.

Now I'm the guy with the unpopular opinions. I tolerate views other than my own of course, but I work in my own interest. I don't want 5.0 DRK to be fixed, I want for it to be destroyed. Completly. To have something new, you have to tear down the old. It's no surprise the toolkit feels so disjointed. It's a bitter memory of sophisticated synergy between the old DRK and what we currently have. Do I care about accessibility for newer players? Nope. Why should I? In the end the fact ultimately is I have to abandon this job in favour of their satisfaction. Sounds ridiculous to me.

There you have it. No sugarcoating, no modesty, just plain honesty. Alot of times these forums remind me of reddit; in a way where you have to apologize for having any opinions at all. If it deviates from the popular opinion its discounted.

Anyhow, I never said people shouldn't give their opinions. I created this thread because no one else thought of doing that. For the sake of collecting data and opinions all across. The truth is, we either ask for what we want or someone else will get what they want. You have enough toxic spergs coming in here disregarding all posts by saying the job is perfect and fine. Remind me why I should be respectful in my approach and considerate.

[Ryaduera]

Because alot of them are just plain basic. It's the same old of what we have right now. Either fix it or screw it; I choose the latter.

The fact we ultimately ended up with this new iteration and its lack of essentially everything, either proves the devs don't care, or they just have nothing better to expand upon.

Now I'm the guy with the unpopular opinions. I tolerate views other than my own of course, but I work in my own interest. I don't want 5.0 DRK to be fixed, I want for it to be destroyed. Completly. To have something new, you have to tear down the old. It's no surprise the toolkit feels so disjointed. It's a bitter memory of sophisticated synergy between the old DRK and what we currently have. Do I care about accessibility for newer players? Nope. Why should I? In the end the fact ultimately is I have to abandon this job in favour of their satisfaction. Sounds ridiculous to me.

There you have it. No sugarcoating, no modesty, just plain honesty. Alot of times these forums remind me of reddit; in a way where you have to apologize for having any opinions at all. If it deviates from the popular opinion its discounted.

You're not the only one with unpopular opinions. But shooting down literally everyone elses ideas and saying they are wrong for enjoying something is pretty jaded. You are entitled to your opinion, but acting like being considerate and listening to others and recognizing the value of a masses opinions is what you have to apologize for. Apologizing for being a short sighted ass doesn't mean you weren't a short sighted ass. It's not about the opinion, it's about what you said about everyone elses opinions. My entire argument was just that every opinion is valid and you're saying you don't want to hear it because you think your "unpopular" opinion is better and you're sick of hearing the others, instead of vocalizing your own and seeing if anyone agrees. Every opinion and idea is worth something. This post overall reads like it was written by a salty league player.

[Shin96]

You're not the only one with unpopular opinions. But shooting down literally everyone elses ideas and saying they are wrong for enjoying something is pretty jaded. You are entitled to your opinion, but acting like being considerate and listening to others and recognizing the value of a masses opinions is what you have to apologize for. Apologizing for being a short sighted ass doesn't mean you weren't a short sighted ass. It's not about the opinion, it's about what you said about everyone elses opinions. My entire argument was just that every opinion is valid and you're saying you don't want to hear it because you think your "unpopular" opinion is better and you're sick of hearing the others, instead of vocalizing your own and seeing if anyone agrees.

Yes every opinion is valid, I stand behind that. But we have to find common ground and agree somewhere. There needs to be some major general consensus on what we want or not. Do we want much of the same, which is 5.0 DRK? Or something different in the context of what's interesting to all of us? Granted, my approach is a bit radical, I understand. But the entire reason we have this problem is because the developers think that's the DRK everyone wants. You have to say uncomfortable things to break the monotony sometimes, it's how you get attention sometimes.

Anyhow, yes I am jaded. Why do you think I picked DRK? Because I'm a good boy? Please. If we want to have a whiff or sliver of getting our desired wishes, we need to re-approach this issue from a selfish point of view. I'm not shooting down other ideas, but we have this lazy rework, are we gonna take the expansions in a realistic, self-contained way or see if they can come up with new things? We are on the losing end because someone is getting what they want and we don't. And those aren't the type of people who come here asking for anything.

[Ryaduera]

Yes every opinion is valid, I stand behind that. But we have to find common ground and agree somewhere. There needs to be some major general consensus on what we want or not. Do we want much of the same, which is 5.0 DRK? Or something different in the context of what's interesting to all of us? Granted, my approach is a bit radical, I understand. But the entire reason we have this problem is because the developers think that's the DRK everyone wants. You have to say uncomfortable things to break the monotony sometimes, it's how you get attention sometimes.

Anyhow, yes I am jaded. Why do you think I picked DRK? Because I'm a good boy? Please. If we want to have a whiff or sliver of getting our desired wishes, we need to re-approach this issue from a selfish point of view. I'm not shooting down other ideas, but we have this lazy rework, are we gonna take the expansions in a realistic, self-contained way or see if they can come up with new things? We are on the losing end because someone is getting what they want and we don't. And those aren't the type of people who come here asking for anything.

The class you play has nothing to do with being jaded, literally nothing. Some of the most jaded people I have met were healers. I can't even... What even is this statement... Idk man maybe you like big swords? Maybe you're a huge fan of Guts? If the only reason you like DRK is your vanity, that may be the issue.

You literally said everyones ideas were just fanfiction and not helpful at all. You literally said it. You refute claims that say the job only needs a little attention by saying it needs to be torn down and rebuilt or it will still suck, but now are trying to say you think all opinions are valid. I can't tell what you want, which granted means nothing as I have no authority here, but far be it from me to just let someone act like that without calling it out. Maybe I'm a PLD player then?

[Garnix]

People ask for many different things. What's more valueable is straight-up saying what sucks about this job.
snip

Self-contradiction! I like that! (just kidding!)

I really think Delirium is not that bad. Look at PLD. It has A LOT of button mashing in its rotation (3*Atonement, 4*Holy Spirit, and now 4*Confiteor), and it's not an issue I have ever seen people complain about.
Delirium, IR, Req....all the same, especially now that they are all on 60s.
The main problem with Delirium IMO is not Delirium, it's the rest of the kit that doesn't help it feeling better to use.

[Ryaduera]

Self-contradiction! I like that! (just kidding!)

I really think Delirium is not that bad. Look at PLD. It has A LOT of button mashing in its rotation (3*Atonement, 4*Holy Spirit, and now 4*Confiteor), and it's not an issue I have ever seen people complain about.
Delirium, IR, Req....all the same, especially now that they are all on 60s.
The main problem with Delirium IMO is not Delirium, it's the rest of the kit that doesn't help it feeling better to use.

Yeah I don't actually think the issue is Delirium. Requiescat can be seen as a similar skill too as it's basically your "Time to press Holy Spirit" button, just with a finisher. It's really more about the way it's used being identical. PLD has to use it in a unique way whereas DRK has to use it in the same was as WAR bur WAR had it first back when we had to squeeze Fell Cleave three times in one Berserk. So yea, I'd give this a hard agreement.

[Shin96]

Self-contradiction! I like that! (just kidding!)

I really think Delirium is not that bad. Look at PLD. It has A LOT of button mashing in its rotation (3*Atonement, 4*Holy Spirit, and now 4*Confiteor), and it's not an issue I have ever seen people complain about.
Delirium, IR, Req....all the same, especially now that they are all on 60s.
The main problem with Delirium IMO is not Delirium, it's the rest of the kit that doesn't help it feeling better to use.

The problem I have with it is the uncertainty of what horrible things they come up with next. It was excrutating having to use it 5 times in a row; 3 times is better, but I'm still on the fence because I haven't actually experienced the gameplay flow yet.

If 5.0 was that necessary rework we all needed, how come.. 6.0 and all its lackings came to existence? What is the reason the developers make these choices. Are they tripping over themselves or is this a deliberate choice?