Another Yoshi interview: Healer DPS, Sage, Scholar, etc (MTQ)

[HappyHubris]

Note that YoshiP referenced healer design for "5.X and beyond," so the current content is the "more intense" design that keeps healers "more busy" which they are targeting for EW.

But that said we don't want to make the content impossible for players with not as high skill level to clear. Because if we make it too intense, the number of people who can clear the content will be very limited. We don't want to have a situation where somebody is just healing the whole time, like All the time all the time, or like we have to HAVE to manage MP constantly.

[Saefinn]

Note that YoshiP referenced healer design for "5.X and beyond," so the current content is the "more intense" design that keeps healers "more busy" which they are targeting for EW.

But that said we don't want to make the content impossible for players with not as high skill level to clear. Because if we make it too intense, the number of people who can clear the content will be very limited. We don't want to have a situation where somebody is just healing the whole time, like All the time all the time, or like we have to HAVE to manage MP constantly.

Oh no, you are right, I rewatched it, I must have missed the '5.x' (maybe my brain adjusted it to 6.x). Then damn...then it does make me worried if this is what they consider more intense.

Following on from that, it sounds like they're still trying to make it so healers are doing more heals in encounters and says it's what they are trending towards, so it sounds like they acknowledge they're not where they want to be in that regard?

And then highlights that item levels also make this hard, because 4 weeks out, 6 weeks out etc people's hear will be better and this affects heals, which is a point I can say "fair enough" on because I've said in other threads that when I did most of the ShB levelling dungeons first time on SCH that I was actually enjoying it, but our iLevels weren't that great. And how overtuned we are is present across a wide range of content, where previously challenging or semi-challenging stuff is a cakewalk, particularly in old content when we just roll mechanics.

Another example I've remarked before is that whilst Cape Westwind is so much of a cakewalk that it's memeable in roulettes, but after we got our Titan Savage clear we thought it'd be fun/funny to try min iLevel run it and I was focusing a lot more on healing and the heals were more frequent than it was doing Titan Savage (though obviously not as complicated or difficult, because I don't want to suggest the two are comparable).

So I feel there is truth here. The stat squish is a good opportunity to address this I think...I just hope they have, especially as its clear YoshiP is aware of this problem.

[Risvertasashi]

And then highlights that item levels also make this hard, because 4 weeks out, 6 weeks out etc people's hear will be better and this affects heals, which is a point I can say "fair enough" on because I've said in other threads that when I did most of the ShB levelling dungeons first time on SCH that I was actually enjoying it, but our iLevels weren't that great. And how overtuned we are is present across a wide range of content, where previously challenging or semi-challenging stuff is a cakewalk, particularly in old content when we just roll mechanics.

I don't think this is wrong or anything but I want to point out that this has been something discussed here on the forums for years and years. Yes, part of the problem is that if you stay current on ilvl - not even cutting edge by weekly capping, even somewhat close - you'll be a good 20 or 30 ilvls above the minimum for a new dungeon when it releases.

And then raids are a bit spicier because new gear releases at the same time, but people who raid are especially likely to weekly cap everything, so those ilvls fly by.

And then, ironically, yes, leveling dungeons are relatively spicy (people warn to be cautious of large pulls in Bardam's Mettle to this day) because their ilvl sync keeps things from getting out of hand as much.

So, I mean, it's nice to see Yoshi acknowledge it, but this isn't a new discussion point. Even by half-a-decade standard.

-

That said, personally, I don't think they can really address it without doing more of an overhaul than they'd be willing to do. The nature of the design around burst damage and burst healing and the GCD means even if very healing-intense content, like say ultimates, you just can't be healing most of the time. Most of the time meaning most GCDs here. People just wouldn't survive if the model is "Miss a GCD, everyone dies". But if it isn't that, then the metagame is always going to be to use every spare GCD to DPS.

SE did nerf healing strength relative to % of maximum HP restored (which I think is the reference to tuning up healing requirements they made), but the burst model just means it takes an extra GCD or 2 to heal up. Perhaps not even that, with oGCDs.

-

Lastly, one bigger problem I have with Yoshi's comments:
Healer DPS is not a case of throwing out a spare GCD of damage here and there. In high end content, healers are expected to meet DPS content. For example, a group might expect a 10k minimum in E12S phase 1, though typically forgiving less with deaths/other issues, but perhaps expecting even 13k+ if things go smoothly. Talking about it like it's just a little bit of DPSing here and there feels a bit out of touch with the game's meta and expectations.

Even in a dungeon, people aren't going to be happy with a healer that does maybe a holy/gravity/art of war or 2. And it's understandable - not doing these things means a high amount of idle time.

It's nice that people are talking about it at all - compared to past media events where healing got little to no coverage - but this particular interview point didn't reflect the reality of healers being "green DPS" hardly at all.

[Saefinn]

I don't think this is wrong or anything but I want to point out that this has been something discussed here on the forums for years and years. Yes, part of the problem is that if you stay current on ilvl - not even cutting edge by weekly capping, even somewhat close - you'll be a good 20 or 30 ilvls above the minimum for a new dungeon when it releases.

And then raids are a bit spicier because new gear releases at the same time, but people who raid are especially likely to weekly cap everything, so those ilvls fly by.

And then, ironically, yes, leveling dungeons are relatively spicy (people warn to be cautious of large pulls in Bardam's Mettle to this day) because their ilvl sync keeps things from getting out of hand as much.

So, I mean, it's nice to see Yoshi acknowledge it, but this isn't a new discussion point. Even by half-a-decade standard.

-

That said, personally, I don't think they can really address it without doing more of an overhaul than they'd be willing to do. The nature of the design around burst damage and burst healing and the GCD means even if very healing-intense content, like say ultimates, you just can't be healing most of the time. Most of the time meaning most GCDs here. People just wouldn't survive if the model is "Miss a GCD, everyone dies". But if it isn't that, then the metagame is always going to be to use every spare GCD to DPS.

SE did nerf healing strength relative to % of maximum HP restored (which I think is the reference to tuning up healing requirements they made), but the burst model just means it takes an extra GCD or 2 to heal up. Perhaps not even that, with oGCDs.

-

Lastly, one bigger problem I have with Yoshi's comments:
Healer DPS is not a case of throwing out a spare GCD of damage here and there. In high end content, healers are expected to meet DPS content. For example, a group might expect a 10k minimum in E12S phase 1, though typically forgiving less with deaths/other issues, but perhaps expecting even 13k+ if things go smoothly. Talking about it like it's just a little bit of DPSing here and there feels a bit out of touch with the game's meta and expectations.

Even in a dungeon, people aren't going to be happy with a healer that does maybe a holy/gravity/art of war or 2. And it's understandable - not doing these things means a high amount of idle time.

It's nice that people are talking about it at all - compared to past media events where healing got little to no coverage - but this particular interview point didn't reflect the reality of healers being "green DPS" hardly at all.

Yeah, everything you've said is spot on. I've seen the iLevel conversation come up on here a few times and even made my own suggestions, though flawed ones at that.

But yeah I think the refreshing point is seeing these points discussed because we're so used to silence on the healer side and it means we know they are in the devs' consideration, whether they alleviate or solve the problem of course remains to be seen, one can hope, but it won't be long before we find out. And I think now we have a clearer idea of what their thoughts are it can help us direct our feedback better.

[KDSilver]

B]We don't want to have a situation where somebody is just healing the whole time, like All the time all the time, or like we have to HAVE to manage MP constantly.[/B][/INDENT]

That's not what we've been asking.

A lot of the question regarding healers have been poorly worded.

The main goal is to get something interesting to do during downtime.
But people only expressed the need of bigger dps rotation and yoshi talked about healing all the time.

Meh.

[HappyHubris]

That's not what we've been asking.

A lot of the question regarding healers have been poorly worded.

The main goal is to get something interesting to do during downtime.
But people only expressed the need of bigger dps rotation and yoshi talked about healing all the time.

Meh.

In (I think the Mr. Happy Interview) he addressed that directly. Healers will not get more involved DPS rotations, because he doesn't want weaker players to feel pressured into doing them, either.

Edit: Found it.

Mrhappy1227: Healers in Final Fantasy XIV often discuss how often they are casting DPS spells despite being healers. Often nicknaming jobs like White Mage a “Glare Mage” as an example. The Media Tour build has some new healing skills that also have damage components to them. Has the team taken any feedback from the players on improving interactivity with the healers? Whether that be more interesting DPS skills or more prominent healing requirements.

Yoshida: So I totally understand that those healers that have a very high player skill level and they’ve really mastered their jobs go into these different raids or battles and when they do have some downtime between their heals they do cast more offensive spells. Some of them desire to have more technical aspects of it so they are more active and I totally understand that sentiment. But of course the basis of a healer is to heal so I think the development team and I have this thinking of getting that sense of exhilaration from doing really good heal work.

That being said I don’t think we would do any sort of dramatic addition of offensive skills moving forward. By having these offensive abilities some players, like new healers, might feel pressured like “oh do I have to have good DPS while I’m healing?” or some players might be aggressive like “oh hey you have an offensive skill in your kit, why don’t you use it?” and I don’t think that’s optimal either.

But of course we do have the new job, Sage, which will allow for this unique gameplay where if you land an attack it heals at the same time. Or if there’s like a particular barrier ability that you cast and once that’s depleted it increases the resource which could lead to an attack which is very unique. I think players would be interested in trying that out for sure.

[AFuzzyMu11in]

In (I think the Mr. Happy Interview) he addressed that directly. Healers will not get more involved DPS rotations, because he doesn't want weaker players to feel pressured into doing them, either.

Edit: Found it.

Mrhappy1227: Healers in Final Fantasy XIV often discuss how often they are casting DPS spells despite being healers. Often nicknaming jobs like White Mage a “Glare Mage” as an example. The Media Tour build has some new healing skills that also have damage components to them. Has the team taken any feedback from the players on improving interactivity with the healers? Whether that be more interesting DPS skills or more prominent healing requirements.

Yoshida: So I totally understand that those healers that have a very high player skill level and they’ve really mastered their jobs go into these different raids or battles and when they do have some downtime between their heals they do cast more offensive spells. Some of them desire to have more technical aspects of it so they are more active and I totally understand that sentiment. But of course the basis of a healer is to heal so I think the development team and I have this thinking of getting that sense of exhilaration from doing really good heal work.

That being said I don’t think we would do any sort of dramatic addition of offensive skills moving forward. By having these offensive abilities some players, like new healers, might feel pressured like “oh do I have to have good DPS while I’m healing?” or some players might be aggressive like “oh hey you have an offensive skill in your kit, why don’t you use it?” and I don’t think that’s optimal either.

But of course we do have the new job, Sage, which will allow for this unique gameplay where if you land an attack it heals at the same time. Or if there’s like a particular barrier ability that you cast and once that’s depleted it increases the resource which could lead to an attack which is very unique. I think players would be interested in trying that out for sure.

Perfect response from uoshi p

[Reimmi]

Perfect response from uoshi p

Seems un-necessary when they've said themselves they don't balance fights around healer DPS, and i can't imagine healers having fun leveling in even the MSQ spamming 1 button, 2 every 30 seconds.
I don't think anyone is even asking for a complex healer rotation, just a couple more buttons to press, like scholar used to?

[KDSilver]

Seems un-necessary when they've said themselves they don't balance fights around healer DPS, and i can't imagine healers having fun leveling in even the MSQ spamming 1 button, 2 every 30 seconds.
I don't think anyone is even asking for a complex healer rotation, just a couple more buttons to press, like scholar used to?

Realistically speaking...
For the last 2 years, overall, what people commonly asked for to be back was :

SCH : Miasma (+Bane if possible)
WHM : Aero III.

I think even only that was already enough.
But it looks too much...

[Acece]

Seems un-necessary when they've said themselves they don't balance fights around healer DPS, and i can't imagine healers having fun leveling in even the MSQ spamming 1 button, 2 every 30 seconds.
I don't think anyone is even asking for a complex healer rotation, just a couple more buttons to press, like scholar used to?

for me I wanted whm to have a dps rotation that was close to or on par with complexity to card management of 5.1 since I liked the old sleeve draw more then the current one. sure you needed to use light speed but i had fun with it, felt like ast actually had a burst phase of sorts.