Openly admitting to ignoring the players

[BooPoo]

Up the healing requirement. Squash that 70% down to 10 or 20%, you'll find that I'll stop complaining except maybe in solo content.

Lol what about Sage then. If everyone needs to heal 70% of the time but sage either:

1. Can both heal and DPS during that time, then it becomes the only choice of healers.

2. Needs to focus on spamming GCD healing abilities during 70% of the time. It invalidates half of Sage's kit but most importantly, destroys Sage's identity as a healer that heals by damaging enemies.

I don't see that as a good solution for a large group of players that want green DPS tbf.

[Saefinn]

Lol what about Sage then. If everyone needs to heal 70% of the time but sage either:

1. Can both heal and DPS during that time, then it becomes the only choice of healers.

2. Needs to focus on spamming GCD healing abilities during 70% of the time. It invalidates half of Sage's kit but most importantly, destroys Sage's identity as a healer that heals by damaging enemies.

I don't see that as a good solution for a large group of players that want green DPS tbf.

Well yes, they stripped SCH a chunk of its identity, made WHM's identity redundant and watered down AST's, so what's one more, eh? I mean, heck healers don't use much of their kit most of the time anyway, so welcome to the healer experience?

Putting he facetiousness aside, in actuality, no, you wouldn't need to change how SGE heals. Because SGE's DPS kits heals people, so in a way this is where SGE ends up just adding a layer to this, if you're DPSing an enemy to heal somebody that I would say that doesn't count as downtime and counts as healing uptime. It's when you're DPSing to DPS that it is downtime. With SGE this becomes harder to measure.


However, I already acknowledged this method doesn't respect the game's design. But I state it is 'a' solution (and in the context of the "healers heal" argument, this would better fit those desires), but I do not think that it is the right solution but it is a better solution than twiddling thumbs and may result in interesting healing play. But if you want to make healers engaging with their current design, that's how you're gonna do it. And I think if people are enjoying playing their healer job, they're more amenable to that change and compromise and less likely to complain. But there are problems that I listed with this approach (and is not an exhaustive list).

Breaking up the downtime with a variety of DPS-related moves is really the most sensible way to go. Because the only thing that will change is how many abilities are available to us in our downtime and how our rDPS is balanced.

[BooPoo]

Putting he facetiousness aside, in actuality, no, you wouldn't need to change how SGE heals. Because SGE's DPS kits heals people, so in a way this is where SGE ends up just adding a layer to this, if you're DPSing an enemy to heal somebody that I would say that doesn't count as downtime and counts as healing uptime. It's when you're DPSing to DPS that it is downtime. With SGE this becomes harder to measure.

Not meaning to disapprove of your final solution, I very much want it, but just want to add another reason against upping healer uptime to 90%:

Assuming no changes to healer kits, if healers have 90% uptime but sage is the only one that's able to consistently output damage during it (aside from Assize, Star etc. since those are like 400 pot per minute) then it becomes way too OP. Sorry but I can't fathom how SGE can exist in a world where everyone needs to be a curebot with balance in mind.

[Saefinn]

Not meaning to disapprove of your final solution, I very much want it, but just want to add another reason against upping healer uptime to 90%:

Assuming no changes to healer kits, if healers have 90% uptime but sage is the only one that's able to consistently output damage during it (aside from Assize, Star etc. since those are like 400 pot per minute) then it becomes way too OP. Sorry but I can't fathom how SGE can exist in a world where everyone needs to be a curebot with balance in mind.

That's fair and something I did not consider, because with that configuration SGE would have a higher rDPS and people would just pick SGE. So it is possible then if they took this approach then they would either have to add damage to more healing spells on other jobs or take away that part of SGE and knowing their track record it'd be the latter rather than the former. The former, however, would not be so bad, but given the solution I was describing was with the "healers heal not DPS" crowd in mind and the steps that would require healers to be engaging with the current design then it'd be the latter option it'd follow.

Which of course doesn't work with those who're on the side of healer/DPS hybrid. Though I feel ultimately the reason the healer/DPS hybrid approach is the best solution is because the game was designed to favour that approach, which makes sense because it was how healers were designed originally. And it is further evidenced by the fact we have huge downtimes of spamming 1 or 2 buttons. Hence it would be a lot of work to satisfy the "healers heal and are not DPS" camp, because although it looks like it on paper, how healers are designed don't favour that mentality either because it's not just healer design that controls this.

It's correct that they manage to satisfy people that come for the story and music, or FF themes. But they like to deliberately excuse job and role design decisions around those players in mind. Holding back players because others cannot manage to accomplish the same results is a terrible idea. One man's frustration can make up for a thousand, and the silent majority do not set trends. As I have said, all of these choices are made by the developers themselves.

They should introduce optional difficulties. If most players are unable to play at an efficent pace, it makes sense to accommodate them this way. If they are bothered by pressing more than 1-2 buttons, I don't see what's hard by giving them the option to do that. I just don't want to be treated the same way honestly.

I mean, if you're in a dungeon and your healer is spamming Glare or Holy when there's a bigger range of options available, how many people in that party are going o complain about that healer's performance? I reckon maybe a small handful. Because how many people sit there and criticise how well their DRG or their NIN or their MNK are performing? Or any of the tanks for that matter, if you don't see PLD use their full DPS kit do we see people complain? And PLD has a few facets to their DPS kit but they can still perform well enough on their base kit.

I feel like the people who'd be most affected are those at the higher end trying to maximise their own DPS contribution, so it's extra steps for them, I'd argue those at that higher level of play are in a position where they can handle it, especially if we take the kind of approach we had with SCH where your skills are worked gradually and between heals and not a combo like DRG or MNK or to the same level of complexity. Or if it's like SGE where there is a dual purpose of healing and DPS in their spells. I get some might not want to do that, but I'd wager they'd still at least enjoy the role and if we're looking for a happy medium, there's compromises somewhere on each level (even on mine)

[Shin96]

I mean, if you're in a dungeon and your healer is spamming Glare or Holy when there's a bigger range of options available, how many people in that party are going o complain about that healer's performance? I reckon maybe a small handful. Because how many people sit there and criticise how well their DRG or their NIN or their MNK are performing? Or any of the tanks for that matter, if you don't see PLD use their full DPS kit do we see people complain? And PLD has a few facets to their DPS kit but they can still perform well enough on their base kit.

I feel like the people who'd be most affected are those at the higher end trying to maximise their own DPS contribution, so it's extra steps for them, I'd argue those at that higher level of play are in a position where they can handle it, especially if we take the kind of approach we had with SCH where your skills are worked gradually and between heals and not a combo like DRG or MNK or to the same level of complexity. Or if it's like SGE where there is a dual purpose of healing and DPS in their spells. I get some might not want to do that, but I'd wager they'd still at least enjoy the role and if we're looking for a happy medium, there's compromises somewhere on each level (even on mine)

The problem with this crowd is they want to drag us down on the same cognitive level as them. They want to enjoy the fruits of being able to play a job at maximum efficency, except by doing nothing. You can make your healers as braindead as possible, or any job in this specific case, and they still won't use their toolkit to the fullest. I think this is what's largely missing in this discussion.

People need to stop with this act of modesty; it won't solve anything. I'm not advocating for people to be insensetive or rude, but let's all be honest and say we dislike these changes. This has always been for the most part, a conflict of interests. How much would it hurt them if they were in a matchmaking system of people equal to their skill; by an optional difficulty where you don't have to play moderately well? It really wouldn't be such a big problem. However, they just don't like being left out on the basis of us wanting to expand our horizones and just have more things to do with our jobs.

If they see anything more than 1 button they start shaking. Nevermind you don't have to use them all if you don't care about performance, but let's drag everyone down to the same level. Pressing less will give us the same efficency, but the reward structure of learning your job and playing accordingly is rendered null and void.

I think this is the first time I ever experienced a game with a backwards logic; in such a way where the worst are considered the guiding standard for how a job should be designed. No wonder I end up with a SAM that uses single target rotations on a wide array of mobs. No melded materia, no interest in improvements. I feel like this game is encouraging laziness in more ways than one at the expense of everyone.

[Saefinn]

The problem with this crowd is they want to drag us down on the same cognitive level as them. They want to enjoy the fruits of being able to play a job at maximum efficency, except by doing nothing. You can make your healers as braindead as possible, or any job in this specific case, and they still won't use their toolkit to the fullest. I think this is what's largely missing in this discussion.

People need to stop with this act of modesty; it won't solve anything. I'm not advocating for people to be insensetive or rude, but let's all be honest and say we dislike these changes. This has always been for the most part, a conflict of interests. How much would it hurt them if they were in a matchmaking system of people equal to their skill; by an optional difficulty where you don't have to play moderately well? It really wouldn't be such a big problem. However, they just don't like being left out on the basis of us wanting to expand our horizones and just have more things to do with our jobs.

If they see anything more than 1 button they start shaking. Nevermind you don't have to use them all if you don't care about performance, but let's drag everyone down to the same level. Pressing less will give us the same efficency, but the reward structure of learning your job and playing accordingly is rendered null and void.

I think this is the first time I ever experienced a game with a backwards logic; in such a way where the worst are considered the guiding standard for how a job should be designed. No wonder I end up with a SAM that uses single target rotations on a wide array of mobs. No melded materia, no interest in improvements. I feel like this game is encouraging laziness in more ways than one at the expense of everyone.

I'm fine with things being more accessible, that side I have no issue with and I think that only needs a low skill floor, high skill ceiling approach and I think the complaint from the accessibility PoV is where they're expected to contribute bigger DPS when it'd tougher, that can be because they are new, an age thing, a disability and so on. Though they don't really make up the complaints I see.

As for those who're generally lazy and want to put in minimal effort for maximum results then yeah, it makes less sense to accommodate them because when we get to the level of place where DPS contribute tends to really matter then we're at a level of content hat isn't low effort.

And I think the one of the more common complaints I've seen have been on healers focusing too much on their DPS and not enough on their healing.

Honestly I'm not sure what the solution is to that, I don't think there is beyond redesigning how the game works, I know how it can be mitigated (and one of those mitigations is given people more to do, because tunnel vision is a thing), but the game is designed in a way where the most valuable thing in content is how much overall damage you contribute. It's not say, Final Fantasy XI where your party configuration is based on what abilities your job can have to contribute in dealing with certain mechanics...in a similar sort of way Masked Carnivale is designed, where your choice in Blue Magic spells is based on what provides the best methods for dealing with each encounter's mechanics, but this approach doesn't exist outside of that in XIV...and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It will come with its downsides.

I know I responded in another thread to somebody today who said they would rather healers have 0 DPS abilities in dungeons so they can focus on the party and not prioritise their DPS. But that's not a good suggestion, but I think as far as the rest of the party is concerned they may live with that idea because hey, they're not the healer. Even then, NGL, I'd probably just play on my phone in my down time, so I'd probably has less focus.

[BooPoo]

I know I responded in another thread to somebody today who said they would rather healers have 0 DPS abilities in dungeons so they can focus on the party and not prioritise their DPS. But that's not a good suggestion, but I think as far as the rest of the party is concerned they may live with that idea because hey, they're not the healer. Even then, NGL, I'd probably just play on my phone in my down time, so I'd probably has less focus.

Agreed. Not to mention that it renders healers useless on their own outside of instances. 4 entire jobs in an RPG cannot be played independently in the open world of an MMO is such a joke. On top of that it really disrespects the players that like hybrid playstyle. I think the person you responded to was arguing in bad faith tbh.