"gogogo" might make me quit this game.

[Ronduwil]

No offense, but this attitude is exactly why DR df runs are so terrible now. You guys pushed all of the decent players out with this attitude.

Now they get sub 20 minute runs and df gets... Hour minimum....

I'm not sure how DR is even relevant to this conversation. DR has no trash and no possibility of wall to wall pulls. I was farming memories in DR a couple of weeks ago, and runs were taking about a half hour. I can't even remember a single wipe in my runs. The "decent" players who you're talking about prefer to run with each other because they've spent hours outside of DR faming essences. Their runs are taking just as long, but they've front loaded that time into essence farming and manual group finding. More power to them. I can't say I've ever been bored in DR.

[ForteNightshade]

I'm not sure how DR is even relevant to this conversation. DR has no trash and no possibility of wall to wall pulls. I was farming memories in DR a couple of weeks ago, and runs were taking about a half hour. I can't even remember a single wipe in my runs. The "decent" players who you're talking about prefer to run with each other because they've spent hours outside of DR faming essences. Their runs are taking just as long, but they've front loaded that time into essence farming and manual group finding. More power to them. I can't say I've ever been bored in DR.

Essence farming takes no more than 30 minutes. Or they're simply buying Fragments off the Marketboard. Either way, the extra time spent isn't remotely comparable. I've ran four DRs with a premade PF in the same span of time DF took to complete it once. The decent players decided they were done getting leeched off and made their own incredibly fast alternative. Which does to show how incredibly shortsighted the whole Essence system is from a design perspective.

Right back at you. If you want to play with speed runners, then do that instead of queueing for the duty roulette and subjecting a mix of novices and experts to your impatience. I know it's not reasonable to expect that of you, however, for the same reasons it's not reasonable for you to expect that of me. If I could get 50 tomestones at a pop by exclusively running trusts, I would happily do so.

Except the typical community standard nowadays is medium to large pulls, especially in Expert. Therefore, you're being the outliner and should be expected to use PF.

[Ronduwil]

Except the typical community standard nowadays is medium to large pulls, especially in Expert. Therefore, you're being the outliner and should be expected to use PF.

I can buy the argument that this is expected in the Expert roulette, even though I've never run it. However, this go go go mentality is even pervasive in the leveling roulette. I run the leveling roulette for tomestones almost daily. I'm well-acquainted with the lower level instances. I'm not so well acquainted with the higher level ones. I've seen people complaining about having run through these instances so many times that they're bored, but in my case, this is the first expansion that I've level capped in. if the instance is 60+, I'm often running it for the first time at worst, and for the third time at best.

There have been several times when the tank stopped to fight, and I started DPSing, thinking that we were doing single pack pulls, so I wasn't sweating the tank being down a quarter of their health. Suddenly, I look up to see that they've taken off without a word, and by then they've pulled out of range and into another pack at half health. So I've learned to just not DPS and keep the tank topped off even if it's going to make the run slower.

On the other hand, there was this one time where the tank asked, "How did you want me to go? Fast or slow." My response was, "Your preference." His reply was, "Fast it is." I had no trouble healing and DPSing under those circumstances because I knew what to expect. The biggest problem with go go go in general is the lack of communication.

The way I see it, if you're signing up for the leveling roulette, you're doing so with the knowledge that many of those players will be novices to their job, if not to the entire game. It's like if I, as a high school senior, offered to sit in on an algebra class to help out some underclassmen only to nudge them out of the way, fill out their worksheets, and complain to them for being so slow at simple math. If you're unwilling to slow down, then don't run lower level content.

[ForteNightshade]

I can buy the argument that this is expected in the Expert roulette, even though I've never run it. However, this go go go mentality is even pervasive in the leveling roulette. I run the leveling roulette for tomestones almost daily. I'm well-acquainted with the lower level instances. I'm not so well acquainted with the higher level ones. I've seen people complaining about having run through these instances so many times that they're bored, but in my case, this is the first expansion that I've level capped in. if the instance is 60+, I'm often running it for the first time at worst, and for the third time at best.

Many of us are not though. We're running it for the 100th time and don't feel like taking it slow because one person isn't able to keep up when the remaining two also want a fast run. Now there are some exceptions to this. In low level dungeons or new players, I'm more forgiving. Case in point, I didn't do as big a pull as a could after wiping in Dusk Vigil last night with a baby healer. I still maintained medium pulls though. Which segues into make next point. You aren't a novice by the midway point of Heavensward, if not early. You've literally reached more than half way to max level. If you still don't understand how to dodge orange circles, use CDs and have a basic understanding of your job kit, regardless of rule, you have no business queuing for 60+ content. Go back to the earlier dungeons and/or read your tooltips. I'm not going to pull three mobs at a time in Holminster Switch cause you're too lazy to actually practice your chosen job.

This notion big pulls are some sort of boogeyman is silly. Mobs do not hurt you whatsoever. Even in Leveling dungeons. Two sets of mobs aren't going to overwhelm even newer players nor is a DPS pulling ahead all that big a deal.

[Ronduwil]

Many of us are not though. We're running it for the 100th time and don't feel like taking it slow because one person isn't able to keep up when the remaining two also want a fast run.

Then don't queue for leveling roulette.

Now there are some exceptions to this. In low level dungeons or new players, I'm more forgiving. Case in point, I didn't do as big a pull as a could after wiping in Dusk Vigil last night with a baby healer.

So it took a wipe before you exercised a little consideration for the new healer. That's consistent with my experience in the roulette, and that was the entire point I was trying to make. Thanks.

if not early. You've literally reached more than half way to max level. If you still don't understand how to dodge orange circles, use CDs and have a basic understanding of your job kit, regardless of rule, you have no business queuing for 60+ content. Go back to the earlier dungeons and/or read your tooltips.

You're drastically oversimplifying. I'm talking about oddball mechanics like the Blizzards in Snowcloak that players sometimes stand in while fighting. What do orange circles have to do with the tank going down too quickly for the healer to keep up? The healer can dodge orange circles all day, and the tank is still going to go down if he's soaking them all while also pulling multiple packs. Also, there is no "under 60" option in the leveling roulette once you've hit 60. You just get whatever someone else needs. That almost guarantees that you're going to have at least one new player in any given 60+ instance via the leveling roulette.

I'm not going to pull three mobs at a time in Holminster Switch cause you're too lazy to actually practice your chosen job.

You're not going to see many new players in Holminster Switch, either, because you can do it via a Trust (which is what I did my first time through).

This notion big pulls are some sort of boogeyman is silly. Mobs do not hurt you whatsoever. Even in Leveling dungeons. Two sets of mobs aren't going to overwhelm even newer players nor is a DPS pulling ahead all that big a deal.

That may be so in your endgame gear. That's not true of a brand new tank who hasn't even realized that they can go to the splendors vendor to purchase a full level-appropriate set every ten levels starting at 50. I've seen too many paper tanks in the roulette to agree with your statement. Once I've blown my cooldowns and exhausted my lilies as a WHM, I can only spam Cure II so quickly.

[ForteNightshade]

Then don't queue for leveling roulette.

I wasn't aware you were the arbiter of Roulettes. Just because I can get lower level dungeons doesn't mean I have to coddle new players, especially since they may not necessarily be new to the game but simply the dungeon. Granted, I'll be more cautious with a baby in Stone Vigil over Holminster Switch but I'm still going to pull more aggressively because the content has been nerfed so far into the ground I can safely do so.

So it took a wipe before you exercised a little consideration for the new healer. That's consistent with my experience in the roulette, and that was the entire point I was trying to make. Thanks.

Unlike you and several others, I don't view a wipe as some big colossal failure. They handled the double pulls just fine but were a little behind when I went ahead pulling all the zombies; which I didn't notice. We wiped as a result. Shocking, I know, but this isn't a big deal. We continued along without it being a big deal when I double pulled later. Mistakes can happen.

You're drastically oversimplifying. I'm talking about oddball mechanics like the Blizzards in Snowcloak that players sometimes stand in while fighting. What do orange circles have to do with the tank going down too quickly for the healer to keep up? The healer can dodge orange circles all day, and the tank is still going to go down if he's soaking them all while also pulling multiple packs. Also, there is no "under 60" option in the leveling roulette once you've hit 60. You just get whatever someone else needs. That almost guarantees that you're going to have at least one new player in any given 60+ instance via the leveling roulette.

No. You are drastically overestimating how difficult big pulls actually are. I cited orange circles because tanks are only ever in danger of dying pulling two packs of mobs if they aren't dodging said circles. We're not talking about super pulls here where the tank has ten mobs on them like you can pull off in Doma Castle or Mt. Gulg. We're talking about 4-6 mobs instead of two. They deal laughably low damage. That blizzard mechanic doesn't matter if the tank uses CDs, which they should be aware of by level 51. If they aren't, the pull size isn't the issue but their lack of common sense. Otherwise, you can just chime in chat, asking them to pull away from the blizzard. Then the pull size goes back to being just as easy as it always was.

You're not going to see many new players in Holminster Switch, either, because you can do it via a Trust (which is what I did my first time through).

You clearly don't queue for Leveling often. I've seen all sorts of players in Holminster Switch. Many of us have because the amount of people who just try blitzing through the game expecting to be carried is staggering. You aren't new at 51 any more than you are at 71. By this point, you're more than half way to level cap. How dare we have a standard of basic understanding for your chosen job.

That may be so in your endgame gear. That's not true of a brand new tank who hasn't even realized that they can go to the splendors vendor to purchase a full level-appropriate set every ten levels starting at 50. I've seen too many paper tanks in the roulette to agree with your statement. Once I've blown my cooldowns and exhausted my lilies as a WHM, I can only spam Cure II so quickly.

Nope. I have done Brayflux double pulls in a hodgepodge of gear below 32 on my alt. I've double pulled every HW dungeons in full Ironworks; used various bits and pieces of gear going through Stormblood and wall pulled every single dungeon in Shadowbringers from the very first day; in my i400 gear. I didn't do any of the super pulls save for Don Mheg's, but that's also because I wasn't aware of them at the time. Either way, we're back to you grossly overestimating the difficulty of double pulls. Now I certainly don't expect less experienced tanks pulling everything in sight even at 71, but two packs is laughably easy. If they're struggling, it's either a cooldown problem or the healer isn't paying attention. In both scenarios, the pull size (4-6 mobs, just so we're clear) isn't the issue. It's the players not bothering to learn their jobs and getting upset other peoples aren't willing to coddle them.

[SturmChurro]

(..) grossly overestimating the difficulty of double pulls. Now I certainly don't expect less experienced tanks pulling everything in sight even at 71, but two packs is laughably easy. If they're struggling, it's either a cooldown problem or the healer isn't paying attention. In both scenarios, the pull size (4-6 mobs, just so we're clear) isn't the issue. It's the players not bothering to learn their jobs and getting upset other peoples aren't willing to coddle them.

Yeah, with a good party (DPS, heals, and tank) even the "scary" pulls are easy. Bigger pulls are incredibly easy and routine, for me, that I will only notice a problem when this factors in, and you can then easily understand exactly why your party has wiped. Either through DPS taking forever, single targetting (not aoeing), healer not contributing to DPS/healing well... Yes, holy helps a lot. For example, as a tank, when I see a white mage, their benediction factors into whether I will take the risk and pull a massive full pull, and my dcd usage. Most players are (or should be) competent enough to do most regular - yes, regular - sized pulls in the majority of dungeons, especially by mid-late game, in my opinion.

[Rowde]

I'm not sure how DR is even relevant to this conversation. DR has no trash and no possibility of wall to wall pulls. I was farming memories in DR a couple of weeks ago, and runs were taking about a half hour. I can't even remember a single wipe in my runs. The "decent" players who you're talking about prefer to run with each other because they've spent hours outside of DR faming essences. Their runs are taking just as long, but they've front loaded that time into essence farming and manual group finding. More power to them. I can't say I've ever been bored in DR.

LoL... Front-loaded with essence farming... Someone has't been in a proper cluster farm.