Worthless Live Letter

[Mortex]

No braindead thread would be complete without Aword at this stage would it.

Fox/Source is correct. Enough with the appeasement. Engage brain, effort and participate in something worthwhile. Nothing about current Job design is anything more than a tedious joke.

Healer job design and too a degree tanks but it’s like a different world playing DPS is still so much more fun and also way more different play styles then healer can ever have. Healers just press ogcd and done.

[GrimGale]

To shoot yourself in the foot to have fun with healers seems so completely against game logic.

You WANT new gear. You want to chase that reward. That's why you prog, that's why you fight, to reach for that carrot. I'm not saying it is the ONLY carrot, but it's definitely a reason for people to try new bosses and encounters, to gain more power, to get the happy chemicals of progression.

If your class requires you to abandon the chase, to sabotage yourself with lower gear and worse party-members in order to be fun or engaging, it must mean that it has been designed without any sort of consideration for those core aspects.

[Aword3213]

To shoot yourself in the foot to have fun with healers seems so completely against game logic.

You WANT new gear. You want to chase that reward. That's why you prog, that's why you fight, to reach for that carrot. I'm not saying it is the ONLY carrot, but it's definitely a reason for people to try new bosses and encounters, to gain more power, to get the happy chemicals of progression.

If your class requires you to abandon the chase, to sabotage yourself with lower gear and worse party-members in order to be fun or engaging, it must mean that it has been designed without any sort of consideration for those core aspects.

yeah,apparently my idea is bad. I'm fine with it but now I'm confused

My idea is that IL 510 and IL 535 still give the same HP and Defense, but any offensive related attribute still vary. IL535 gear still give higher Str/Mind/Dex/Int and Det/Crit/Direct Hit.

What you were trying to say is that people would lose motivation to raid just because the loss of those additional HP and Defense?

I feel like certain replies are made with eagerness to counter me, which is fine, without reading the full context of my idea.

[Aword3213]

If Mind is lowered, healers will have to heal more and their damage will be more irrelevant because Mind is their primary stat for damage increase.

Forcing healers into mindless GCD heal spamming is a big fat no from me.

If you need to cast succor regularly at min item level when you are optimizing it means that your party is bad, terrible or you are not using your oGCDs correctly. GCD healing is common when progging, but you do that only for a day or two for a raid. From e9s I learned my lesson to let parties wipe regularly whenever I have to heal them too much. Some random DPS is gonna upload the log because they finally managed to get a measly purple color parse. Outside prog, I am not casting healer lb3 ever again.

The main thing I like about better gear is that I do not have to rely on competent PF groups to survive big raid-wides. There are already so many trap farming parties and even more parties with Tanks and DPS not using their mitigation abilities. Some tanks literally just provoke the boss during the Tank buster without mitigating it. I'd rather spend one GCD on rezz than to use it on GCD heal to keep them alive because they forgot to press their buttons.

It's nice that healers are not solely responsible for damage mitigation. Tanks and DPS can mitigate a lot more damage than healers. If we wipe on raid-wides no one can tell me anything about casting succor. One oGCD would have mitigated twice as much.

In EW Succor will be shielding for even less so there is that.

When I said relying on GCD, it does not mean I cast them all the time. But when you try to run Min IL with no meld, you definitely need to cast more GCD heals then doing it normally, not by a lot though.

as for the Mind thing, I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT LOWERING IT. Capitalized in hope of you can notice it because I have had reiterated it twice already....

[Aword3213]

No braindead thread would be complete without Aword at this stage would it.

Fox/Source is correct. Enough with the appeasement. Engage brain, effort and participate in something worthwhile. Nothing about current Job design is anything more than a tedious joke.

I just don't want to make myself miserable by being angry at status quo, toxic to other people with different ideas, and nostalgic of the past.

I'm just trying to look at things in different angle. I'm okay to be criticized honestly. I'm not afraid of admitting my idea is bad.

[FoxCh40s]

I just don't want to make myself miserable by being angry at status quo, toxic to other people with different ideas, and nostalgic of the past.

I'm just trying to look at things in different angle. I'm okay to be criticized honestly. I'm not afraid of admitting my idea is bad.

Then you're just in denial. Really man, I've read your comments fully and completely; you're just self soothing.

Making concessions at this point is rediculous. We should have fought back when they removed Cleric Stance, because they took it as a sign to completely lobotomize the role entirely.

[Aword3213]

Then you're just in denial. Really man, I've read your comments fully and completely; you're just self soothing.

Making concessions at this point is rediculous. We should have fought back when they removed Cleric Stance, because they took it as a sign to completely lobotomize the role entirely.

FYI, not everyone likes Cleric Stance. At least, no to the extent as you do.

Cleric Stance wasn't an amazing button either

Well yeah, i mean, no one in their right mind is going to say "things were better when we had Cleric Stance".

Bear in mind that me saying I liked CS doesn't imply I think it was good or that it should come back.

I actually don’t miss the 3-4 dots scholar had. Kinda glad their gone. I don’t miss cleric stance either.

I would appreciate if you, or anyone, could talk about HP and Defense and their effects on healer gameplay rather than dismissing it with simply so short a word as "concession" or "ludicrous."

So far, the replies I'm getting from my idea is either dismissive, insult(braindead), and total out of context misunderstanding.

[Aword3213]

Why not balance the game so that every dungeon would require a DPS with healing abilities? Maybe let one more DPS join and add a few basic healing spells. And give healers more attack powers. If you're making all classes feel the same, might as well fix this mess by making all roles feel the same. At least this way healer wouldn't be so pressured with "healing right" and you would eliminate awkward situations of loss when healer goes down in a dungeon.

It's just so stupid. The developers put themselves into this tiny fragile box of "I don't want to change it all too much but I want to make things easier, and guys please don't get mad, we need you to buy our mounts... hardcore players? Yeah, we don't care. That's not what we're going for. Yeah!"

Also regarding my idea with DPS healing... whenever I played as that DPS with healing power (red mage?), it was utterly pointless. The healer does everything, they have too much healing power so whenever I would heal, it made no difference. Even though I had the time to do that.

There are games do that. Most of them are action based game

You don't necessarily need healers to fight bosses or running dungeons. Every job has potions and some even have self heals. However, having healers would make fights easier because potions have limited use and self heals have extremely long cooldowns. If you are confident with your skills, you don't need healers. Also healers in such games generally spend lots of time dpsing because many incoming damage can be dodged.

However, FFXIV is a game which Trinity is the core design of everything. The direction you want the game to take seems very unlikely.

[MintnHoney]

I would appreciate if you, or anyone, could talk about HP and Defense and their effects on healer gameplay rather than dismissing it with simply so short a word as "concession" or "ludicrous."

So far, the replies I'm getting from my idea is either dismissive, insult(braindead), and total out of context misunderstanding.

The problem that you're really running into is that you're asking for renewed discussion for a concept that's been talked about for a long while and most healers in these forums are too far beyond jaded to discuss it. But because I have a soft (or hard?) spot for Hrothgar (and mostly because I'm bored while waiting for certain files to drop at work), I'll jump into the sea and wade around a bit with some surface thinking, though I can't promise I'll be on-point with completely understanding your point of view.

It's true, as HP and Defense go up, players lose a smaller percentage of their HP when hit by a particular attack; therefore, as HP and Defenses go down, players lose a larger percentage of their HP for that same attack. As iLevels increase, so do stats, which include HP and Defenses. If it were allowed that HP and Defenses would not increase for a dungeon, but STR, INT, and MND were increased, ignoring the other implications (for the entire of the party) for now, and ignoring the secondary stats, this would not really do much for healer-specific gameplay except contribute to the amount of overhealing that would be created or increase the possible downtime from healing.

For this example, let's still ignore those other implications and secondary stats, and also ignore other abilities, spells, and skills.
Let's say that the Tank gets 75000 HP, and would always take 10000 damage from an enemy auto-attack, but then take 25000 damage from the enemy's Miracle Kick attack.
Let's say that, at minimum ilevel and stats, Sylphie goes in and wants to Cure the Tank to keep them going, and that Cure heals for 6000 HP. That means they would need 2 Cures to heal the damage dealt by each auto-attack (with a 2000 HP overheal), and then 5 to heal the damage dealt by Miracle Kick (with a 5000 HP overheal).
Eventually, though, as her MND stat grows, the situation turns into Sylphie healing for more than 6000 HP. Let's say she's gained enough MND to heal for 8000 HP per Cure. That means she still needs 2 Cures to heal the damage dealt by each auto-attack (now with a 6000 HP overheal), and then 4 Cures to heal the damage dealt by Miracle Kick (with a 7000 HP overheal).

All that really becomes of this situation is that Sylphie would end up needing even less Cures to heal up the damage for the tank over time and, since we would always know the minimum baseline for tanks and what damage they would be dealt, this would lead to making things even more predictable, turning every dungeon crawl into a Squeenix-approved blend of choreography and a player's brain age score.
This isn't factoring in abilities and other spells by healers, of course, and this definitely doesn't factor in the other party members' agency, especially the Tanks who, I suspect, would be none-too-pleased about removing a key component of their growth (reducing damage taken based on their stats alone) from the game. All of this, and we still haven't addressed that the gameplay for healers' downtime needs some spicing up, that we can't force Sylphie to cast more than her favorite Cure, that Squeen will likely adjust the damage to lesser numbers than I have stated to ensure that Scraggly Spriggan doesn't one-shot the DPS players with his 15-turned-40k damage Pebble Toss that the DPS managed to fling themselves into (assuming DPS would be given less HP and Defense than the tank), and we haven't even factored in other mobs yet. Once you factor other mobs in, this sort of change would boil the game down into slow-paced dungeon-crawls, where going over the designated Squeen-approved pulls means certain death, and the new gameplay becomes demolishing enemies one at a time, as quickly as possible.
Or else, Squeen would reduce the damage dealt by enemies to the point where we'd resume the same gameplay loop we have now (and so things wouldn't really change).

[Aword3213]

The problem that you're really running into is that you're asking for renewed discussion for a concept that's been talked about for a long while and most healers in these forums are too far beyond jaded to discuss it.

Well, some people certainly don't mind making yet another 1000+ posts complaining about the same thing over and over again for years to come.

this would not really do much for healer-specific gameplay except contribute to the amount of overhealing that would be created or increase the possible downtime from healing.

I won't be so sure about that, but you might be right. I'd love to see how it turns out, though.The current system we have here reduces the need of healing and mitigation as we gear up. No matter how much heal checks are made, gears always have impacts on how we heal. We don't need to do min IL to know the difference. We can just look at those healers at week 1 prog and know the difference about how people heal today.

Not saying SE should just adjust HP and defense and call it a day though. Healers still need more attention and I agree healers as a role should feel more engaging to play. My point is that lots of healers are asking for more things to heal, yet gears will always be one of the reasons that reduce the healing required, thus reducing the impact of healers in a party.


There are requests stating healers want to feel useful to the party. However, asking for more damage options doesn't solve this. If healers are designed to contribute 20% damage of total raid damage, then adding more offensive spells and abilities won't change that. Healers still contribute 20% damage anyway. All of rotations and extra botton press won't change how useful to the party healers are. Even if SE did answer our wish and give us what we want, healers will be as useful as they currently are. Healers just can't get anymore useful.

It seems to me 1 button spam is not the reason that leads to the mentality of not feeling impactful, but the gear is.

Regarding Syphies, aren't they going to overheal anything at any situations anyway?

Squeen will likely adjust the damage to lesser numbers than I have stated to ensure that Scraggly Spriggan doesn't one-shot the DPS players with his 15-turned-40k damage Pebble Toss that the DPS managed to fling themselves into

Umm....even in min IL run, it's rare to see DPS getting one shot by non tank mechanics. Minimum IL does not mean being naked with no job stone. DPS are actually durable enough to be able to take quite a few hits from raid boss autos