Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

[Ath192]

FFXI is still going thats for sure but even at its peak it was never anywhere near as popular as FFXIV is. Its very different in many ways but in my opinion one of the reasons its still going is the complexity of the gearing and its horizontal gear progression. There is almost always something you need, for one gear set or another.

Also, imagine how many people have quit due to its difficulty level, I've long ago lost count of how many people I knew who quit over farming kitty pants alone.

Almost all of the hardest content is now merc'd, and has been for years now.

So complexity of some sort keeps it going by your own admission, even if you disagree where that complexity comes from.

Here are some synonyms from the dictionary:

Synonyms for complexity:
complicacy, complication, convolution, difficulty, intricacy

[Artemiz]

So complexity of some sort keeps it going by your own admission, even if you disagree where that complexity comes from.

Here are some synonyms from the dictionary:

Synonyms for complexity:
complicacy, complication, convolution, difficulty, intricacy

You can play semantics all you want, it doesn't change the fact that this game is easier, more accessible and significantly more popular than FFXI. I've played FFXI for 15 years, I love that game so I'm not knocking it. Its just never been anything like as popular as FFXIV.

[Shurrikhan]

Here are some synonyms from the dictionary:

Synonyms for complexity:
complicacy, complication, convolution, difficulty, intricacy

Synonyms are rarely interchangeable in any involved context, however, so what is your point exactly?

[Nyarlha]

Time to repost YoshiP's interview from last May.

Naoki Yoshida: I’d like to refrain from giving away too many specifics at this time, but I think the chances of doing large-scale, challenging content is greater than creating high-difficulty content meant for smaller groups. It’s not that we are unable to create high-difficulty content for small groups, but currently I am a bit more hesitant with that direction overall.

In the case of a four-player high-difficulty dungeon, there is much less room for players to work with when it comes to party deaths or mistakes. If even a single party member is incapacitated or makes a mistake, it will invariably lead to a wipe, with not much leeway to save the run or come up with a creative solution. Another major reason is because our community continues to grow—naturally this is bringing in many casual players, and I believe that when looking at the bigger pictures, large-scale content will be easier for all players to get into.

If anything, one possibility might be high-difficulty floor(s) of the Deep Dungeon series… but please stay tuned for future announcements!

[Snorky]

Time to repost YoshiP's interview from last May.

I think what people are missing in this quote is what is the underlying goal of including as many types of players as possible. This is the goal and focus. Being harder doesn't make something better. He wants 4 man accessable to all types of players.

[HappyHubris]

In the case of a four-player high-difficulty dungeon, there is much less room for players to work with when it comes to party deaths or mistakes. If even a single party member is incapacitated or makes a mistake, it will invariably lead to a wipe, with not much leeway to save the run or come up with a creative solution.

That's....the entire point of tough content.

It's like saying that adding peppers to a spicy dish is to be avoided, because it might end up spicy.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

That's....the entire point of tough content.

Sure, that's the point, but a 4 person party empirically has a much higher point of failure than an 8 person party does though, which is exactly Yoshi-P's point.

If the healer dies in a 4 person party and you don't have a SMN/RDM, it's an automatic failure (assuming its actually tuned difficulty wise that a tank can't just perpetually self heal themselves). Contrast an 8 person party where you not only have greater odds of having a rezzer dps in your party, but also a 2nd healer that can salvage the run. Take a look at Pharos Sirius when it was first released; the dungeon was leagues more difficult than its competitor released at the same time as it, on top of being far harder than most dungeons. If you had a bad healer, you were automatically GG before the dungeon even began. Hence why the dungeon had intense issues of people instant bailing the moment they saw it and didn't want to stick around to find out if they got a good healer or not until 5-10 mins into the run.

Yoshi-P simply doesn't want difficult content where the point of failure is shifted so extremely onto a single person (the healer). Not to mention if it was sufficiently difficult enough, you'd have hilarious issues like SMN/RDM kicking all other dps to the curb in terms of meta simply because they have rezzes. The only possible way I could see Yoshi-P being on board with difficult 4 man content is if they gave everyone like a duty action rez during the dungeon to prevent the single point of failure issue.

[Shurrikhan]

Sure, that's the point, but a 4 person party empirically has a much higher point of failure than an 8 person party does though, which is exactly Yoshi-P's point.

Yeah, of course... but why is that necessarily an issue? It's an altogether different form of difficulty. It takes less damage to end you, but you're also dealing with less damage.

If the healer dies in a 4 person party and you don't have a SMN/RDM, it's an automatic failure (assuming its actually tuned difficulty wise that a tank can't just perpetually self heal themselves).

That's not even true in mid-high tier Mythic+ (and their equivalent rez-capable DPS). Granted, there are more tools there, such as CC and self-healing tools, which increase one's potential responsibilities and engagement ("difficulty") even as they make recovery more achievable (and a given fight more "accessible"), but if fights that much harder are still doable, having more than a single difficulty level isn't going to suddenly turn dungeon-running into a repetitive wipe-fest off of the smallest possible mistake outside the average player's control.

Take a look at Pharos Sirius when it was first released; the dungeon was leagues more difficult than its competitor released at the same time as it, on top of being far harder than most dungeons. If you had a bad healer, you were automatically GG before the dungeon even began.

Which competitor? Moreover, only the first and last boss truly demanded a healer, even pre-nerf. The rest of the dungeon, I ended up three-manning many a time while waiting for a refill. It wasn't nearly so auto-fail as you make out.

Contrast an 8 person party where you not only have greater odds of having a rezzer dps in your party, but also a 2nd healer that can salvage the run.

But you also then need to contrast the 4-man experience to the possibilities for player kills provided by 8-man mechanics at equivalent difficulty, the stronger tank-busters that would leverage cotanks external mitigation and the near-guarantee of a shield and the cotank rotating in for their CDs, the tighter DPS checks per their being a lower standard deviation in group output, many more potential one-shot mechanics precisely because a rezzer is likely to survive, etc., etc.

btw one the most appalling experiences in my gameplay so far is the way experienced players treat newbies on reset days (Tuesday) in the first fight of the tier.

This, btw, is one of the most noticeable downsides of trying to funnel every (highly distinct) type of player through the same weekly/daily grind loops, especially in a game so centered around (stale) reward schemes.

[Ath192]

Synonyms are rarely interchangeable in any involved context, however, so what is your point exactly?

That people like difficulty and involvement in content they love. And simplicity and ease only make for a forgettable experience. As such, they should make FFXIV more challenging because the game is too easy.

For example here is a video of a Warrior Soloing Paglth'an, the latest dungeon available to players and part of the so called "Expert" duty roulette.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMgTambpkRc

I don't know about you but knowing the content is so easy a single person can mow through the entire dungeon without any aid defeats the purpose of having a team or playing multiplayer. It's also very sad as a party member knowing you are just there just because, its not like they need you or anything. You want to help? great, You want to sit down and not do anything? They'll keep going just fine. Your presence is meaningless to a good tank with self heals or two players that know how to handle things.

It's a very empty feeling to be in a game and knowing the content is so easy you do not matter at all.

You apparently need to be an "extreme" level player or above to begin to matter. I don't think anyone can look at those labels and agree with a serious face. I also don't say this because I dislike the game, I say this because I want it to improve.

[RitsukoSonoda]

That people like difficulty and involvement in content they love. And simplicity and ease only make for a forgettable experience. As such, they should make FFXIV more challenging because the game is too easy.

For example here is a video of a Warrior Soloing Paglth'an, the latest dungeon available to players and part of the so called "Expert" duty roulette.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMgTambpkRc

I don't know about you but knowing the content is so easy a single person can mow through the entire dungeon without any aid defeats the purpose of having a team or playing multiplayer. It's also very sad as a party member knowing you are just there just because, its not like they need you or anything. You want to help? great, You want to sit down and not do anything? They'll keep going just fine. Your presence is meaningless to a good tank with self heals or two players that know how to handle things.

It's a very empty feeling to be in a game and knowing the content is so easy you do not matter at all.

You apparently need to be an "extreme" level player or above to begin to matter. I don't think anyone can look at those labels and agree with a serious face. I also don't say this because I dislike the game, I say this because I want it to improve.

But the lazy players making noise want the game easier because they want other people to clear the content for them so they can roll on the loot that drops.

Accessibility is basically meaning it's available to everyone. That does not mean the content needs to be dumbed down or trivialized to the point party members aren't needed. Ex trials are accessible by everyone, savage raids are accessible by everyone, Ultimate is accessible by everyone. It's a matter of the player actually putting the time or effort to unlock and complete the content. This should be the same for MSQ, 4 player duties, and normal mode 8 player content because that content is supposed to be preparing players to do the other content. The thing I feel the devs aren't realizing based on the route they've gone with nerfs to various duties and the MSQ is that these people crying about being "gated" are going into the harder content as well and being a hinderance to the other players in those duties as they now essentially have to clear it as if they were missing party members. As a result it's caused a breakdown of the already diminished social aspects of the game. These underdeveloped players jumping into ex/savage/ultimate/etc aren't any different than those people that never cleared the beginning of a single player game grabbing the controller from their friend playing that game on a boss fight late in that same game and trying to clear it. It ends in a prompt face plant and game over because they never developed the game skills to do it.