Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

[Jirah]

Call me the minority, but I enjoy dungeons the way they are. They're good for leveling, getting tomes and other sundry items, glamour farming, generally derping around with friends, and *practicing mechanics*. I think this last one is most important. Dungeons give us the opportunity to practice mechanics on various classes before going into the 8 and 24 player content where they actually matter.


I agree that the two-packs and a boss recipe gets boring, but anything will be boring after a while. Larger dungeons with more varied pathways will not only get boring, they'll get *tedious* after a while, leading to the old Aurum Vale syndrome. Roulette dungeons are pretty much the best of a bad situation so the best we can do is put our heads down and get them done with as little fuss as possible for those weekly tomestones.

This is bar none the worst attitude to have about MMO content, let’s all just say “that’s just how it is” like it will never get better and without it even improving a sliver. For god sakes this is 80s content we don’t need hallways tutorials unless you unsynched all the content and got carried by the harder trials like Castrim Flu, and Dancing plague. If you need to improve basic mechanics I suggest play Sastsha not all the 80s dungeons, worse is that some of the ARR ones are harder which undermines the whole “they are there for new players to not be intimidated by a aoe” debacle

Players in the game have a serious issue with being overly coddled. Last I checked this isn’t a kids game

[Mindiori]

Players in the game have a serious issue with being overly coddled. Last I checked this isn’t a kids game

Yet we both know, that because this style of laughable laziness and meaningless existence is the majority by way of peoples tendency to be exactly that, lazy; they are the loudest financial voice. In many respects they have destroyed the genre with their own selfishness - whilst claiming that our 'minority' should be ignored. Almost laughable in its irony, considering the 'hurr durr equality' trend they try and argue when it suits them. If anything is tedious its their disingenuous motives. Which really equate to being mentally unable to handle anyone being able to do something they can't. You oft say I am prone to exaggerate; but as you can see - I do so, usually to offset their own. Something which when unchecked, often tends to set the narrative.

I accept that to compromise with what they cite to be 'casual'; some middle ground needs be found. I do however take disagreement as you know by now - the notion that casual = entertained by braindead rubbish. Which isn't anything more than again, agenda driven mental gymnastics. Something's relative worth, is often established by comparative norms. So having things easy - serves no purpose. Except as experience has shown, to create an unnecessary gulf between the tiny fraction of things requiring a brain and those that don't. Which in turn worsens the scenario I believe.

If the game needs be repeatedly dumbed down to account for the bottom tier and skip-pot users; one might begin to question why the early game should even exist anymore. Or how it can be justified to play with so little through so many levels. Presumably a vast amount don't. Seems we have the usual 'the only game is endgame' going on - when the actual bar to most content in terms of skill, is basically just being able to click one button. Not exactly the height of feeling with regard to accomplishment or worth is it.

[RitsukoSonoda]

Yet we both know, that because this style of laughable laziness and meaningless existence is the majority by way of peoples tendency to be exactly that, lazy; they are the loudest financial voice. In many respects they have destroyed the genre with their own selfishness - whilst claiming that our 'minority' should be ignored. Almost laughable in its irony, considering the 'hurr durr equality' trend they try and argue when it suits them. If anything is tedious its their disingenuous motives. Which really equate to being mentally unable to handle anyone being able to do something they can't. You oft say I am prone to exaggerate; but as you can see - I do so, usually to offset their own. Something which when unchecked, often tends to set the narrative.

I accept that to compromise with what they cite to be 'casual'; some middle ground needs be found. I do however take disagreement as you know by now - the notion that casual = entertained by braindead rubbish. Which isn't anything more than again, agenda driven mental gymnastics. Something's relative worth, is often established by comparative norms. So having things easy - serves no purpose. Except as experience has shown, to create an unnecessary gulf between the tiny fraction of things requiring a brain and those that don't. Which in turn worsens the scenario I believe.

If the game needs be repeatedly dumbed down to account for the bottom tier and skip-pot users; one might begin to question why the early game should even exist anymore. Or how it can be justified to play with so little through so many levels. Presumably a vast amount don't. Seems we have the usual 'the only game is endgame' going on - when the actual bar to most content in terms of skill, is basically just being able to click one button. Not exactly the height of feeling with regard to accomplishment or worth is it.

The issue is that the lazy gamers are actually the minority. However like most people of that mindset that want things without working for them they expend as much or more effort and energy in whining and complaining about why they shouldn't have to work than they would have by just doing it. It's like children in a store. A majority of them are well behaved. People tend to only notice the obnoxious one screaming at the top of their lungs throwing a fit because they want something and their parents aren't giving it to them. The problem is how the situation is handled. All of this dumbing down easy mode stuff SE has been doing to this game is about the equivalent of the parents of said screaming child giving them the thing they wanted because they don't want everyone in the store looking at them which is basically rewarding bad behavior.

[Ath192]

I also want to make a point that FFXI is about to celebrate its 20 year anniversary and in large part that game is alive because of how difficult it was, and the bonds the players formed with each other to overcome obstacles and work together.

[Artemiz]

I also want to make a point that FFXI is about to celebrate its 20 year anniversary and in large part that game is alive because of how difficult it was, and the bonds the players formed with each other to overcome obstacles and work together.

FFXI is still going thats for sure but even at its peak it was never anywhere near as popular as FFXIV is. Its very different in many ways but in my opinion one of the reasons its still going is the complexity of the gearing and its horizontal gear progression. There is almost always something you need, for one gear set or another.

Also, imagine how many people have quit due to its difficulty level, I've long ago lost count of how many people I knew who quit over farming kitty pants alone.

Almost all of the hardest content is now merc'd, and has been for years now.

[Ath192]

FFXI is still going thats for sure but even at its peak it was never anywhere near as popular as FFXIV is. Its very different in many ways but in my opinion one of the reasons its still going is the complexity of the gearing and its horizontal gear progression. There is almost always something you need, for one gear set or another.

Also, imagine how many people have quit due to its difficulty level, I've long ago lost count of how many people I knew who quit over farming kitty pants alone.

Almost all of the hardest content is now merc'd, and has been for years now.

So complexity of some sort keeps it going by your own admission, even if you disagree where that complexity comes from.

Here are some synonyms from the dictionary:

Synonyms for complexity:
complicacy, complication, convolution, difficulty, intricacy

[Artemiz]

So complexity of some sort keeps it going by your own admission, even if you disagree where that complexity comes from.

Here are some synonyms from the dictionary:

Synonyms for complexity:
complicacy, complication, convolution, difficulty, intricacy

You can play semantics all you want, it doesn't change the fact that this game is easier, more accessible and significantly more popular than FFXI. I've played FFXI for 15 years, I love that game so I'm not knocking it. Its just never been anything like as popular as FFXIV.

[Shurrikhan]

Here are some synonyms from the dictionary:

Synonyms for complexity:
complicacy, complication, convolution, difficulty, intricacy

Synonyms are rarely interchangeable in any involved context, however, so what is your point exactly?

[RitsukoSonoda]

I also want to make a point that FFXI is about to celebrate its 20 year anniversary and in large part that game is alive because of how difficult it was, and the bonds the players formed with each other to overcome obstacles and work together.

IMO it's not the game's difficulty that has kept FFXI alive. It's more that it's an MMO that still has a majority of staple or classic RPG mechanics in it. They took a majority of what you would expect in a single player offline JRPG at that time and made it an MMO. Hence it's style of classic FF Menu based interface. It had that vibe of being an FF game you could play along with your friends. For the most part I'm sure it's had a stable player base the entire time because it also essentially had long term goals players could aim for where as most if not all of the current "top" MMOs have frequent player activity fluctuations due to lulls in content to keep players entertained or active as it generally only takes a few days to finish everything in a content update and then it's just a question of how much they want to repeat the content to obtain loot. This isn't to say FFXI didn't have repetitive content elements either. However the game did offer a number of options for "endgame" gear ranging from crafting, hunting NMs and HNMs, doing side quests, Dynamis, Limbus, etc... For an extremely long time the game kept with a sort of horizontal progression where expansions and updates just gave players more options to play around with gear wise without invalidating the gear the player had already obtained.