Dark Knight Megathread

[Aword3213]

devaluating their points, experience, and insights

Where did it come from? what??

But more than often they are results of observations and built up on simple fact

What fact? Stormblood DRK was good but if you like ShB DRK you actually like WAR? Nice fact you have there. Shows your mentality towards new players

I highly doubt you read the post I was responding to. That person dismissed others opinion just because he has longer play time. My first reply was directed to him and was emphasized again at later reply. I'm not sure whether you calling me ignorant multiple times is out of misunderstanding or you simply want to demonize me. I'll just assume it's the former, so I would not call you ignorant. At least please have the courtesy to read the quote I was responding to.

If you really can point out those differences from my examples in my reply towards others, then my point was made. Your comparisons are questionable to me too, though. The way I see it. The more examples you give me, the more I fail to see the similarities. In you response,

you ignore the way of accumulation of these gauges, and how they are spend otherwise – including completely different mechanics of those jobs. E.g. GNB generates "50% of their gauge" every time they finish a combo, and "100%" when using Bloodfest; NINs Mug generates 40%, their combo's 5/GCD, and later 10 on combo finishers. GNB also spends their gauge on a unique ST combo; NIN on oGCDs only, one of them has a long and unusual CD for their burst windows and so on.

Good, you noticed the difference. Let's remove those factors so we can complain they are the same, because that's what you do. Like DRK use both resources, MP and Blood Gauge. Blood Weapon generates both. Carve and Split gives MP resource. Delirium give tiny MP resource. They might not look good, but they exist

Infuritate is also on the charge system and gets its CD reduced after every beast gauge weaponskill. Blood Weapon's "unique" trait is its (up to) 3k MP you get from it for 1 Edge or Flood vs Infuriate's trait to overwrite Fell Cleave with Inner Chaos (and aoe counterpart)

like what are you doing? You already pointed out the difference. How are you going to convince me they are the same?
Using comparisons like this only led me to a conclusion that every job is the same. You deal damage. You gain resources. You spend them. They are all the same why don't you play other games.

Delirium and IR are going to operate even MORE similar than before! SE confirmed that both will give 3 stacks of free beast and blood gauge weaponskills

Afaik, Delirium won't have a finisher like WAR is going to have. still no DH/CRT tied to it. Gearing still different (maybe)

You also argue that DRK has stuff WAR does not; again while being ignorant of how much those points weight. Those exact points you've listed there, actually counter your argument that DRK is unique! Why? Salted Earth was a characteristic action for DRK since the jobs release

Yes, it's nerfed. It's not as glorious as what it used to be.... So what? It being nerfed does not make DRK a clone because WAR doesn't even have this. That's my point. That's why I said I'm not countering anyone's argument. You and me are obviously thinking in parallel
My reply was meant to point out the word that has been misused.

Blood Weapon is also an inferior Infuriate with high risk thx to its low duration and sensitivity to high ping, which makes BW for many "offshore" peeps unrealiable.

Then it's not Infuriate. Infuriate does not last 10 seconds. The resource Infuriate generates are fixed at 50, while Blood Weapon generate resources based on how many Weaponskills you land. In my perspective, there's no need for me to explain the differences between DRK and WAR because your reply already pointed out the differences. If 1 skill is only similar in some way, then these tiny differences add up in a kit. They are just different. That's why I said I'm not here to argue. I already know we see things differently. I will never agree DRK and WAR are clones, but that does not mean I don't support the desire to demand changes for DRK. Call me ignorant all you want though. My attitude towards this argument has shifted from support despite disagreement, to old relic of past stuck in nostalgia. but who am i kidding, I'm no one. so don't mind me

[Baxcel]

I highly doubt you read the post I was responding to. That person dismissed others opinion just because he has longer play time.

I dont think you read my reply then since my post said.. something along the lines of..

I played DRK during stormblood and even I barely say I have an opnion on what the job should be like.. because I liked StB and absolutely hate the ShB version

[Aword3213]

I dont think you read my reply then since my post said.. something along the lines of..

and here's the full context of the quote you were responding to https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5672560

I apologize for the bluntness but you don't like DRK.. you like WAR.. and that is sadly not what this class should be.. you've knows DRK for around 2 months or so and havnt even reached maxed level within the game..

DRK shouldn't be playing the way it currently plays it shouldn't be a carbon copy of the WAR class. It should play completely different from any other tank.. just as all the other tanks should play different then each other.

I played DRK during stormblood and even I barely say I have an opnion on what the job should be like.. because I liked StB and absolutely hate the ShB version

[WhyAmIHere]

havent caught up but something that irks me to no end is Dark Arts. HW and SB it was an oGCD you'd use to augment your next action. What irks me about it is that players complained that it was too spammy, and instead of fixing it they just axed the whole thing entirely.

SAM doesn't complain about having to use Kaiten before Iaijutsu, because outside of Iaijutsu there's no real reason as far as I know to use it unless you just wanna *really* empower your next hit. To me it's more focused and narrow in scope, and not a button to press needlessly as you've other gauge spenders to use.

GNB and continuation. it's an oGCD used only after Gnashing Fang and those combos, so again it's more focused and narrow in it's scope. Come Endwalker, all that's changing to it from the job action video is Burst Strike is getting a combo into it.

What's my point? Instead of putting in any real work to make DRK work with it's old kit and one of it's most complained about abilities, they put that work into designing a similar gimmick for other jobs and just left DRK to become gutted, and filled in the void with a job that at that time DRK players brought up ceaselessly: WAR.
It's a shame.

[WhyAmIHere]

Again, these are all matter of perspectives. I could say your comparisons are erroneous too, but I'm not here to prove you wrong. I genuinely don't think there are right and wrong on such subjective matters. These comparisons mean different things in different perspectives. I failed to picture DRK and WAR anything similar even when I tried to compare them in your way. Anyway, you have your opinion and I respect that. I'm only sorry you're not enjoying the job you love.I hope the points you made and the threads you started one day get the attention they deserve.

My reply was only meant for the definition of the word, and certain self entitlement "veterans"

Oh yeah no, that's entirely fair. Lord knows i've been trying to make my voice heard since back in Stormblood with the posts/threads I've made here. Hell i remember complaining about Shadow Wall being needlessly inferior to Vengeance/Sentinel for no good reason before 4.4(?) patch. Then there's Sole Survivor being jank, and if memory serves got the "will get effect even if condition not met" around the same time as Excog got it's own "will trigger at end of duration regardless." (As an aside: funny that RPR is going to be getting a skill akin to sole survivor... makes ya think)

I'm sorry I'm not enjoying DRK as I used to as well. Sure, it functions, but that's a terrible metric for fun IMO. I could drive a beaten up car that barely works, but as long as it gets from A to B screw modern creature comforts like working windows, air conditioning, radio, etc.

[HyperiusUltima]

At this point, I think they don't know what to do with Living Dead or how to differentiate the Invuln from the other tanks. Since it's been regurgitated and eaten since HW, we might as well leave it out for now and focus on what changes we can make to decouple DRK from being WAR lite. Our current actions are ok, but we need to restructure DRK.

For one, I think they might've designed themselves into a corner with DRK. The way they fixed the gauge in Shadowbringers was namely "Just add some WAR", but this makes it difficult to address since it stems directly from the Gauge. A thought came to mind as I was writing this: How can we make it engaging if we remove the Gauge itself for a moment? Somebody mentioned gauge being used as magic when I was asking about how to decouple DRK from WAR - and this means we'll need actions that add some of the things we missed. But first, decoupling from WAR.

1) Make Bloodspiller and Quietus share a 30s CD. Potencies stay the same and does not require Blood Gauge to execute. This keeps the flow smooth instead of having to feel like the gauge is holding you back the whole time like WAR.

2) Revert Delirium to a Combo Action. Same Potency as Souleater. Restores 1000 MP. Adds 10 to Blood Gauge.

Now we have to think about this. Where does that last 600 Potency go? It goes into this action:

Dark Scourge - Lv 78 Unlock, GCD. Deals 400 potency upfront, DoT for 45s. Potency 40. CD 60s. Does not break combo.

It brings back the action from HW - one of the cooler animations imo. But even though it's nostalgia, this would give DRK a slight edge while also giving it something that can help it stand out a bit more. Now as for the 1000 MP on this Delirium, I feel like adding a choice between Blood and MP to set up for Burst phases(whether you need it quickly or you don't) can help give DRK more choices rather than just be 1-2-3. It may make Delirium more useful since it's restoring two things albeit one gives less Blood, but I think that can be left to figure out at high-end which would be best from a development standpoint.

With that out of the way, we need to consider Blood Gauge spending. We have Living Shadow only for this since we took off the requirement for Bloodspiller and Quietus usage. As far as Abyssal Drain goes, it doesn't feel that great and only restores a small amount of HP, even on big groups due to damage output from packs. Removing the CD from Abyssal Drain and replacing it with 20 Blood Gauge requirement could make AoE feel better as well as help DRK give the feel of self-sustain that it used to on damaging actions.

Then there's the new move in the Job Trailer we saw - the one that makes a huge wave of darkness. I'm not sure how much it'd do, but I'd make it tie to the Blood Gauge with the changes made here. One problem I thought about was whether this would make the job too much of the same thing or something. Extra input on this would help me understand flaws and the like.

Edit: Looking back on it and also reading some of the post at the top of this page, it made me think back and realize that having the second combo makes it similar to WAR - but for different reasons given DRK has two resources it needs to keep up(MP and Blood Gauge), not one.

[HyperiusUltima]

havent caught up but something that irks me to no end is Dark Arts. HW and SB it was an oGCD you'd use to augment your next action. What irks me about it is that players complained that it was too spammy, and instead of fixing it they just axed the whole thing entirely.

SAM doesn't complain about having to use Kaiten before Iaijutsu, because outside of Iaijutsu there's no real reason as far as I know to use it unless you just wanna *really* empower your next hit. To me it's more focused and narrow in scope, and not a button to press needlessly as you've other gauge spenders to use.

GNB and continuation. it's an oGCD used only after Gnashing Fang and those combos, so again it's more focused and narrow in it's scope. Come Endwalker, all that's changing to it from the job action video is Burst Strike is getting a combo into it.

What's my point? Instead of putting in any real work to make DRK work with it's old kit and one of it's most complained about abilities, they put that work into designing a similar gimmick for other jobs and just left DRK to become gutted, and filled in the void with a job that at that time DRK players brought up ceaselessly: WAR.
It's a shame.

I actually want to rebuttal that thought about Dark Arts. The problem in Stormblood was that there were TOO MANY applications to which Dark Arts could be applied. SAM's design intends on Kaiten to be used with Iaijutsu instead of your GCDs or oGCDs. DRK had that problem, and it was design issue that offput a lot of people because of how you were repeatedly spamming the same button every oGCD you had if you had MP to spare. In general, I think that there is such as thing as too much APM in terms of gameplay flow if said button is used every GCD.

[HyperiusUltima]

I will never agree DRK and WAR are clones. Call me ignorant all you want though. My attitude towards this argument has shifted from support despite disagreement, to old relic of past stuck in nostalgia. but who am i kidding, I'm no one. so don't mind me

I'm just about no one as well, but I've been playing the game since about 2.4 and am willing to listen. If you don't want to agree DRK and WAR are clones, then perhaps you should take a look at the job design and determine it from there - starting with how they use their gauge. DRK/WAR actually do the same thing - Big Hit or Big AoE at 50 Gauge, only difference being that WAR can Crit-DH as you said before in your previous post in that argument while DRK has to use a clone that does damage automatically like a DoT for the duration. Secondly, Delirium/Inner Release. Both do the same thing in form and function, aside from DRK recovering their primary resource: MP.

The problem lies with how 'rewarding' actions are done for good play as the job: They reward the same way, in the same design. DRK having fewer buttons than WAR does not help this because it makes it look quite similar to it in terms of design, outside of having two resources to take care of. The real differences only matter with how they mitigate, as well as how they recover from big hits, which is a good thing. People want different so as not to get too much of the same in two jobs. Would you order a turkey sandwich with chipotle sauce and a meatball sandwich, only for the meatball sandwich to have turkey balls and tomato sauce? It's like that. They taste only very slightly different, but very much the same at a base level. That's why I'm trying to think of good ways to actually change DRK's current kit since we don't have the information for DRK in Endwalker outside of previews - so you don't get too similar tastes with jobs and actually feel like they're unique in their own way at level cap.

[Aword3213]

I'm just about no one as well, but I've been playing the game since about 2.4 and am willing to listen. If you don't want to agree DRK and WAR are clones, then perhaps you should take a look at the job design and determine it from there - starting with how they use their gauge. DRK/WAR actually do the same thing - Big Hit or Big AoE at 50 Gauge, only difference being that WAR can Crit-DH as you said before in your previous post in that argument while DRK has to use a clone that does damage automatically like a DoT for the duration. Secondly, Delirium/Inner Release. Both do the same thing in form and function, aside from DRK recovering their primary resource: MP.

The problem lies with how 'rewarding' actions are done for good play as the job: They reward the same way, in the same design. DRK having fewer buttons than WAR does not help this because it makes it look quite similar to it in terms of design, outside of having two resources to take care of. The real differences only matter with how they mitigate, as well as how they recover from big hits, which is a good thing. People want different so as not to get too much of the same in two jobs. Would you order a turkey sandwich with chipotle sauce and a meatball sandwich, only for the meatball sandwich to have turkey balls and tomato sauce? It's like that. They taste only very slightly different, but very much the same at a base level. That's why I'm trying to think of good ways to actually change DRK's current kit since we don't have the information for DRK in Endwalker outside of previews - so you don't get too similar tastes with jobs and actually feel like they're unique in their own way at level cap.

The problem is, I don't think they are anyway similar. Whenever I doing Savage content, I prefer to play as GNB, PLD and WAR. I did try running contents as DRK, but I just didn't like the play style. I still don't. I still join PF as DRK from time to time for the sake of learning all jobs within the role of tank. However, whenever I want to truly enjoy tanking, I will never play DRK because I don't want to manage both Blood Gauge and MP. From my experience alone DRK and WAR are nothing similar.

As for the food comparison.. well. For give my lack of imagination and I think my examples will be silly, but to me DRK is like roasted Turkey Sandwich while WAR is like pan-fried Meatball Sandwich. They are all sandwiches with meat.The similarity ends there
I don't agree they are similar nor do they play like clones, but that doesn't not mean I'm against your demand for changes. Just because I disagree with you at certain point doesn't mean I'm dismissing the need for change. The reason I ask for DRK changes are not because it's similar to WAR, but the lack of changes in the incoming EW expac compared to other tanks. I don't think we're necessarily at odd here. We both want the same thing. We just have different reasons.

Though it seems some people here tend to make enemy out of me by calling me ignorant. Well, I can simply adapt to other jobs. DRK can burn now for all I care. This kind of attitude surely helps.

[ArianeEwah]

Where did it come from?

Answer:

To say DRK is a carbon copy of WAR is an overstatement, which should die if people want to make their complaint valid and reasonable. Complaints like these only make it more likely to be dismissed, especially when that complaints are based on seniority.

I can agree that the original post was excessive, but only so far to make their point clear. Diction of choice. Still doesn't mean their arguement that DRK is based on 4.2 Warrior... - no, a simplified version of that - is invalid, because it is.

What fact? Stormblood DRK was good but if you like ShB DRK you actually like WAR? Nice fact you have there. Shows your mentality towards new players

I highly doubt you read the post I was responding to. That person dismissed others opinion just because he has longer play time. My first reply was directed to him and was emphasized again at later reply. I'm not sure whether you calling me ignorant multiple times is out of misunderstanding or you simply want to demonize me. I'll just assume it's the former, so I would not call you ignorant. At least please have the courtesy to read the quote I was responding to.

My grind here is that you don't just dismiss Baxel's complaint as invalid because of "seniority", you continue to do so in response to WhyAmIHere. I feel like because 1 person triggered you by using an excessive term, and you started to disregard everyone points that agreed with Baxel's statement. But it doesn't matter because you...

[...]will never agree DRK and WAR are clones

I am calling you ignorant because I don't see you trying to understand what DRK used to be or originally should've been. You could watch VODs or read through old threads, action history etc. I just don't you making that effort, but I see you calling others entitled. Is that really any better? (And you don't have to be nice, I don't care whether you yell out insults or lull like some politican, speak your mind, and I'll do the same.)

It seems to me that by defending the tiniest differences between Delirium vs. Inner Release, gauge accumulation and spending, Blood Weapon vs. Infuriate, you don't really "support the desire to demand changes". Let me ask you this tho: If Delirium and Inner Release are so different, is there another ability in the game that lets you hit 5 GCD gauge spenders over 10s, on the same CD of 90s? Ofc not!
Is there any other job in the game that generates exactly 20 gauge after using their aoe? No, there isn't!
There are more actions that increase your gauge by 50, but the most klunky and wonky one out there is Blood Weapon! And it will most likely stay the way it is...
There is no job in the melee DPS section that plays like the other, there is no job in the physical ranged DPS faction that plays like the other, the same goes for caster DPS.
There are some actions that resemble each other, but every job gameplay is entirely individual.

For you, those small differences seem to be enough for DRK to be a unique job. I don't know if you have ever played WAR and seen the similarities. There are too many gameplay-wise, and too meagre the differences.
You like ShB DRK? Fine!
Does that change the fact that its based on a simplified 4.2 WAR sprinkled with wonky magic shenanigans? No!
We - who are "stuck in nostalgia" - are just tired to repeat ourselves that DRK is a WAR clone, just be called out by some peep - that played this for 2 months, and WAR for like just 5 min - this wouldn't be true.
Bro, it is true; there is a reason why there are so many DRK threads even before the launch of Shadowbringers, once the media tour was over.
We have been fighting this fight for more than 3 years now, and we exhaustingly frustrated that after all this, what SE came up with, was taking the 5.0 base and "enhance" it. Oh, yeah, f*ckin great, getting 1 or 2 actions AFTER level 80.
Also placing Salted Earth beneath us AFTER fixing ground targeting control? Yeah, f*ckin great again.
I am tired, so so tired to be hit by SE with so much incompetency, it's unbelieveable. But here we are, and then we are getting told it ain't so bad, every tank is unique... I can't-