Dark Knight Megathread

[ArianeEwah]

snip

If all this is a matter of perspectives then please try understanding our stand point.

I get that you and other newcomers like Benn only know the current state of the game. Every job having some kind of gauge, usually 1-2 ST combos, 1-2 buffs to maintain, and usually a 60s and/or 90s burst rotation. For you, that's the norm!
But it wasn't always like this, and our side comes from previous expansions. We have seen what has been, what was possible, and where issues lied back then, maybe even what jobs or roles were intended to be (successful or not). We can see the holes that are left after the "reworks".

Unfortunately, from what I've read in your last posts, it seems you are rather ignorant towards what you call "veterans" or "the seniority", devaluating their points, experience, and insights simply as "opinions" and "overstatements". But more than often they are results of observations and built up on simple facts - even if it just drawing comparison between each action.
E.g. in my answer to your post just a few hours ago, I've shown that more than 50% of DRKs actions are copy and paste versions from WARs actions, even after eliminating role actions.

In your respond to WhyAmIHere you stated that DRK doesn't have any 20 gauge cost actions, and is more oGCD-heavy than WAR. You try to underline your argument with imho questionable comparisons; e.g. you claim that the gauge spenders that spend 50% of their max gauge are similar to other actions that also cost 50% of their gauge. While doing so, you ignore the way of accumulation of these gauges, and how they are spend otherwise – including completely different mechanics of those jobs. E.g. GNB generates "50% of their gauge" every time they finish a combo, and "100%" when using Bloodfest; NINs Mug generates 40%, their combo's 5/GCD, and later 10 on combo finishers. GNB also spends their gauge on a unique ST combo; NIN on oGCDs only, one of them has a long and unusual CD for their burst windows and so on. Additionally, Upheaval and Onslaught will lose their cost soon, which makes this argument invalid, and just confirms that we are going towards the homogenised/clone direction.

You also argue that DRK has stuff WAR does not; again while being ignorant of how much those points weight. Those exact points you've listed there, actually counter your argument that DRK is unique! Why? Salted Earth was a characteristic action for DRK since the jobs release, but has been nerfed to the ground (no pun intended): duration reduced, CD doubled, potencies nerfed; TBN has lost its synergy with the kit while also becoming riskier to use because if not broken the potency lost is at least twice as much as it used to; and Blood Weapon used to give a haste buff (unique for tanks), but has been reduced into an inferior Infuriate. These are prime examples of what has DRK made less unique than before.

I am sorry if this comes off as offensive, but you are doing pretty much the same thing to others by calling them entitled for being long time players, just because they are using the term "carbon copy (of WAR)" for DRK. If carbon copy is a strong word, then so are "long player entitlement" and "sense of superiority", as well as "seniority" or "veteran". When you say, you'd understand their arguments and points, and wouldn't want to prove them wrong, in the next sentence you do exactly that and try to devaluate those statements.

"Clone" is very much accurate! And even when shao32's comparison with clone troopers is a little wonky, they are an excellent example for the "ShB DRK=WAR clone" debate. While they look different on the outside (purple/edgy vs. reddish/brute), and bear different arms (Greatsword vs. Axe), while clearly part of the same role (military/tank), at the core they are the same (clone, identical face, same education, body build). Their difference is their personality, one is edgy and uses many secondary weapons (oGCDs), while the other is more brute, relying on a simple weapon with guaranteed fire power (less oGCDs, crit-DH). But in the end, they only have access to similar equipment, and have to operate as commanded. Meanwhile, PLD and GNB are enjoying their life knowing they are not clones with rapid growth modifications, albeit GNB is rather young, but both have access to unique weaponry… for now, at least.

What tanks are missing is a haste tank, more diversity in effects and aesthetics, as well as further increasing the synergy within all tank jobs toolkits. And is there any better place to start than the job that used to have all of these?

[Aword3213]

devaluating their points, experience, and insights

Where did it come from? what??

But more than often they are results of observations and built up on simple fact

What fact? Stormblood DRK was good but if you like ShB DRK you actually like WAR? Nice fact you have there. Shows your mentality towards new players

I highly doubt you read the post I was responding to. That person dismissed others opinion just because he has longer play time. My first reply was directed to him and was emphasized again at later reply. I'm not sure whether you calling me ignorant multiple times is out of misunderstanding or you simply want to demonize me. I'll just assume it's the former, so I would not call you ignorant. At least please have the courtesy to read the quote I was responding to.

If you really can point out those differences from my examples in my reply towards others, then my point was made. Your comparisons are questionable to me too, though. The way I see it. The more examples you give me, the more I fail to see the similarities. In you response,

you ignore the way of accumulation of these gauges, and how they are spend otherwise – including completely different mechanics of those jobs. E.g. GNB generates "50% of their gauge" every time they finish a combo, and "100%" when using Bloodfest; NINs Mug generates 40%, their combo's 5/GCD, and later 10 on combo finishers. GNB also spends their gauge on a unique ST combo; NIN on oGCDs only, one of them has a long and unusual CD for their burst windows and so on.

Good, you noticed the difference. Let's remove those factors so we can complain they are the same, because that's what you do. Like DRK use both resources, MP and Blood Gauge. Blood Weapon generates both. Carve and Split gives MP resource. Delirium give tiny MP resource. They might not look good, but they exist

Infuritate is also on the charge system and gets its CD reduced after every beast gauge weaponskill. Blood Weapon's "unique" trait is its (up to) 3k MP you get from it for 1 Edge or Flood vs Infuriate's trait to overwrite Fell Cleave with Inner Chaos (and aoe counterpart)

like what are you doing? You already pointed out the difference. How are you going to convince me they are the same?
Using comparisons like this only led me to a conclusion that every job is the same. You deal damage. You gain resources. You spend them. They are all the same why don't you play other games.

Delirium and IR are going to operate even MORE similar than before! SE confirmed that both will give 3 stacks of free beast and blood gauge weaponskills

Afaik, Delirium won't have a finisher like WAR is going to have. still no DH/CRT tied to it. Gearing still different (maybe)

You also argue that DRK has stuff WAR does not; again while being ignorant of how much those points weight. Those exact points you've listed there, actually counter your argument that DRK is unique! Why? Salted Earth was a characteristic action for DRK since the jobs release

Yes, it's nerfed. It's not as glorious as what it used to be.... So what? It being nerfed does not make DRK a clone because WAR doesn't even have this. That's my point. That's why I said I'm not countering anyone's argument. You and me are obviously thinking in parallel
My reply was meant to point out the word that has been misused.

Blood Weapon is also an inferior Infuriate with high risk thx to its low duration and sensitivity to high ping, which makes BW for many "offshore" peeps unrealiable.

Then it's not Infuriate. Infuriate does not last 10 seconds. The resource Infuriate generates are fixed at 50, while Blood Weapon generate resources based on how many Weaponskills you land. In my perspective, there's no need for me to explain the differences between DRK and WAR because your reply already pointed out the differences. If 1 skill is only similar in some way, then these tiny differences add up in a kit. They are just different. That's why I said I'm not here to argue. I already know we see things differently. I will never agree DRK and WAR are clones, but that does not mean I don't support the desire to demand changes for DRK. Call me ignorant all you want though. My attitude towards this argument has shifted from support despite disagreement, to old relic of past stuck in nostalgia. but who am i kidding, I'm no one. so don't mind me

[Baxcel]

I highly doubt you read the post I was responding to. That person dismissed others opinion just because he has longer play time.

I dont think you read my reply then since my post said.. something along the lines of..

I played DRK during stormblood and even I barely say I have an opnion on what the job should be like.. because I liked StB and absolutely hate the ShB version

[Aword3213]

I dont think you read my reply then since my post said.. something along the lines of..

and here's the full context of the quote you were responding to https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5672560

I apologize for the bluntness but you don't like DRK.. you like WAR.. and that is sadly not what this class should be.. you've knows DRK for around 2 months or so and havnt even reached maxed level within the game..

DRK shouldn't be playing the way it currently plays it shouldn't be a carbon copy of the WAR class. It should play completely different from any other tank.. just as all the other tanks should play different then each other.

I played DRK during stormblood and even I barely say I have an opnion on what the job should be like.. because I liked StB and absolutely hate the ShB version

[HyperiusUltima]

I will never agree DRK and WAR are clones. Call me ignorant all you want though. My attitude towards this argument has shifted from support despite disagreement, to old relic of past stuck in nostalgia. but who am i kidding, I'm no one. so don't mind me

I'm just about no one as well, but I've been playing the game since about 2.4 and am willing to listen. If you don't want to agree DRK and WAR are clones, then perhaps you should take a look at the job design and determine it from there - starting with how they use their gauge. DRK/WAR actually do the same thing - Big Hit or Big AoE at 50 Gauge, only difference being that WAR can Crit-DH as you said before in your previous post in that argument while DRK has to use a clone that does damage automatically like a DoT for the duration. Secondly, Delirium/Inner Release. Both do the same thing in form and function, aside from DRK recovering their primary resource: MP.

The problem lies with how 'rewarding' actions are done for good play as the job: They reward the same way, in the same design. DRK having fewer buttons than WAR does not help this because it makes it look quite similar to it in terms of design, outside of having two resources to take care of. The real differences only matter with how they mitigate, as well as how they recover from big hits, which is a good thing. People want different so as not to get too much of the same in two jobs. Would you order a turkey sandwich with chipotle sauce and a meatball sandwich, only for the meatball sandwich to have turkey balls and tomato sauce? It's like that. They taste only very slightly different, but very much the same at a base level. That's why I'm trying to think of good ways to actually change DRK's current kit since we don't have the information for DRK in Endwalker outside of previews - so you don't get too similar tastes with jobs and actually feel like they're unique in their own way at level cap.

[Aword3213]

I'm just about no one as well, but I've been playing the game since about 2.4 and am willing to listen. If you don't want to agree DRK and WAR are clones, then perhaps you should take a look at the job design and determine it from there - starting with how they use their gauge. DRK/WAR actually do the same thing - Big Hit or Big AoE at 50 Gauge, only difference being that WAR can Crit-DH as you said before in your previous post in that argument while DRK has to use a clone that does damage automatically like a DoT for the duration. Secondly, Delirium/Inner Release. Both do the same thing in form and function, aside from DRK recovering their primary resource: MP.

The problem lies with how 'rewarding' actions are done for good play as the job: They reward the same way, in the same design. DRK having fewer buttons than WAR does not help this because it makes it look quite similar to it in terms of design, outside of having two resources to take care of. The real differences only matter with how they mitigate, as well as how they recover from big hits, which is a good thing. People want different so as not to get too much of the same in two jobs. Would you order a turkey sandwich with chipotle sauce and a meatball sandwich, only for the meatball sandwich to have turkey balls and tomato sauce? It's like that. They taste only very slightly different, but very much the same at a base level. That's why I'm trying to think of good ways to actually change DRK's current kit since we don't have the information for DRK in Endwalker outside of previews - so you don't get too similar tastes with jobs and actually feel like they're unique in their own way at level cap.

The problem is, I don't think they are anyway similar. Whenever I doing Savage content, I prefer to play as GNB, PLD and WAR. I did try running contents as DRK, but I just didn't like the play style. I still don't. I still join PF as DRK from time to time for the sake of learning all jobs within the role of tank. However, whenever I want to truly enjoy tanking, I will never play DRK because I don't want to manage both Blood Gauge and MP. From my experience alone DRK and WAR are nothing similar.

As for the food comparison.. well. For give my lack of imagination and I think my examples will be silly, but to me DRK is like roasted Turkey Sandwich while WAR is like pan-fried Meatball Sandwich. They are all sandwiches with meat.The similarity ends there
I don't agree they are similar nor do they play like clones, but that doesn't not mean I'm against your demand for changes. Just because I disagree with you at certain point doesn't mean I'm dismissing the need for change. The reason I ask for DRK changes are not because it's similar to WAR, but the lack of changes in the incoming EW expac compared to other tanks. I don't think we're necessarily at odd here. We both want the same thing. We just have different reasons.

Though it seems some people here tend to make enemy out of me by calling me ignorant. Well, I can simply adapt to other jobs. DRK can burn now for all I care. This kind of attitude surely helps.

[ArianeEwah]

Where did it come from?

Answer:

To say DRK is a carbon copy of WAR is an overstatement, which should die if people want to make their complaint valid and reasonable. Complaints like these only make it more likely to be dismissed, especially when that complaints are based on seniority.

I can agree that the original post was excessive, but only so far to make their point clear. Diction of choice. Still doesn't mean their arguement that DRK is based on 4.2 Warrior... - no, a simplified version of that - is invalid, because it is.

What fact? Stormblood DRK was good but if you like ShB DRK you actually like WAR? Nice fact you have there. Shows your mentality towards new players

I highly doubt you read the post I was responding to. That person dismissed others opinion just because he has longer play time. My first reply was directed to him and was emphasized again at later reply. I'm not sure whether you calling me ignorant multiple times is out of misunderstanding or you simply want to demonize me. I'll just assume it's the former, so I would not call you ignorant. At least please have the courtesy to read the quote I was responding to.

My grind here is that you don't just dismiss Baxel's complaint as invalid because of "seniority", you continue to do so in response to WhyAmIHere. I feel like because 1 person triggered you by using an excessive term, and you started to disregard everyone points that agreed with Baxel's statement. But it doesn't matter because you...

[...]will never agree DRK and WAR are clones

I am calling you ignorant because I don't see you trying to understand what DRK used to be or originally should've been. You could watch VODs or read through old threads, action history etc. I just don't you making that effort, but I see you calling others entitled. Is that really any better? (And you don't have to be nice, I don't care whether you yell out insults or lull like some politican, speak your mind, and I'll do the same.)

It seems to me that by defending the tiniest differences between Delirium vs. Inner Release, gauge accumulation and spending, Blood Weapon vs. Infuriate, you don't really "support the desire to demand changes". Let me ask you this tho: If Delirium and Inner Release are so different, is there another ability in the game that lets you hit 5 GCD gauge spenders over 10s, on the same CD of 90s? Ofc not!
Is there any other job in the game that generates exactly 20 gauge after using their aoe? No, there isn't!
There are more actions that increase your gauge by 50, but the most klunky and wonky one out there is Blood Weapon! And it will most likely stay the way it is...
There is no job in the melee DPS section that plays like the other, there is no job in the physical ranged DPS faction that plays like the other, the same goes for caster DPS.
There are some actions that resemble each other, but every job gameplay is entirely individual.

For you, those small differences seem to be enough for DRK to be a unique job. I don't know if you have ever played WAR and seen the similarities. There are too many gameplay-wise, and too meagre the differences.
You like ShB DRK? Fine!
Does that change the fact that its based on a simplified 4.2 WAR sprinkled with wonky magic shenanigans? No!
We - who are "stuck in nostalgia" - are just tired to repeat ourselves that DRK is a WAR clone, just be called out by some peep - that played this for 2 months, and WAR for like just 5 min - this wouldn't be true.
Bro, it is true; there is a reason why there are so many DRK threads even before the launch of Shadowbringers, once the media tour was over.
We have been fighting this fight for more than 3 years now, and we exhaustingly frustrated that after all this, what SE came up with, was taking the 5.0 base and "enhance" it. Oh, yeah, f*ckin great, getting 1 or 2 actions AFTER level 80.
Also placing Salted Earth beneath us AFTER fixing ground targeting control? Yeah, f*ckin great again.
I am tired, so so tired to be hit by SE with so much incompetency, it's unbelieveable. But here we are, and then we are getting told it ain't so bad, every tank is unique... I can't-

[Aword3213]

Still doesn't mean their arguement that DRK is based on 4.2 Warrior... My grind here is that you don't just dismiss Baxel's complaint as invalid because of "seniority

You confused me. That reply was directed to that person only.If you like to take that seat, be my guest. Just don't come bothering me.
What statement, exactly? How were you able to decipher he was complaining 4.2 warrior clone in his reply below is beyond me

but you don't like DRK.. you like WAR.. and that is sadly not what this class should be..

you started to disregard everyone points that agreed with Baxel's statement.

the point being he played Stormblood DRK so other people cannot like ShB DRK?

I was called out specifically. As I said, I'm not here to make argument., but I was asked to make one.Here's the difference you go. I gave my reason and that was it.

The reason that brought me here is the word carbon copy. It is a strong word. If it's partially the same. then it's not carbon copy.

and I ended it with this

but carbon copy is not the right word. It just isn't.

If you're using the strong word that doesn't fit the definition, just suck it up when some point it out. People know exaggeration when they see one.

I am calling you ignorant because I don't see you trying to understand what DRK used to be or originally should've been.

Well, you insulted me, so here's the "old relic of the past" for ya. take it.

I don't care whether you yell out insults or lull like some politican, speak your mind, and I'll do the same.)

what insult? that veteran thing was never meant for anyone but the person I replied to.

by defending the tiniest differences between Delirium vs. Inner Release,you don't really "support the desire to demand changes".

Obviously, I can't ask for changes when DRK not getting many new stuff in EW. Thanks for letting me know

Let me ask you this tho: If Delirium and Inner Release are so different, is there another ability in the game that lets you hit 5 GCD gauge spenders over 10s, on the same CD of 90s? Ofc not!
Is there any other job in the game that generates exactly 20 gauge after using their aoe? No, there isn't!

Dude, what are you smoking?

I can agree with Delirium = IR part

I don't know if you have ever played WAR and seen the similarities. There are too many gameplay-wise, and too meagre the differences.
You like ShB DRK? Fine!

this escalated quickly

We - who are "stuck in nostalgia" - are just tired to repeat ourselves that DRK is a WAR clone, just be called out by some peep - that played this for 2 months, and WAR for like just 5 min - this wouldn't be true.

keep repeating. You forbid me from asking changes, so I might just as well sit here and watch you struggle

[Hurrican]

I am calling you ignorant because I don't see you trying to understand what DRK used to be or originally should've been.

Geez, why can't you just understand not everyone agrees with you. People just see thing differently. I don't see you trying to understand the point he was trying to make either.

such toxicity is a disgrace to FFXIV community