Dark Knight Megathread

[Aword3213]

i feel like i've pointed out the skills that make DRK and WAR near carbon copies in the past, but i CBA to find it.
we all know Bloodspiller = Fell Cleave, and Delirium = IR. Blood weapon's a more jank Infuriate.

Just because you disagree with a viewpoint doesn't make it wrong, especially if you're going to not analyze the merit to the arguments made. DRK plays so close to WAR that, yes, comparing their skills it's not hard to see "oh, A is like B."

The same thing could be said the same to you. Just because some people agree with you doesn't make it right, especially threads like these tend to attract like-minded people because we all know lots people come to this section of the forum are mostly for making complaints. People are less likely to comment each other's opinions when they find themselves allies. Not to mention when people start complaining things, they tend to become more and more biased because they are so fixated on unleashing their anger that reasons alone are not enough, including me though.

The reason that brought me here is the word carbon copy. It is a strong word. If it's partially the same. then it's not carbon copy. Simply considering their mitigation tools and other dps options are enough to know they are not exactly the same

WAR's play style are GCD reliant, while DRK has to weave lots of oGCDs
WAR does not have ground target ability. DRK has one called Salted Earth.
WAR does not have powerful personal shield. DRK has one called TBN
WAR has Upheaval that only spend 20 gauge. DRK only has spenders which all cost 50 gauge
Infuriate augments WAR's abilities, while blood weapon does not
The list goes on

Although I can agree with Delirium = IR part, the rest I disagree. If we remove Delirium and IR out of consideration. They are simply spenders that cost 50% of you maximum gauge. GNB and NIN also share similar properties of gauge spenders. All of their spenders cost them 50% of maximum gauges. By the same perspective, there are jobs that share similar aspect of how they refill their gauges. NIN and GNB have them. SAM, RDM, MCH have them. I personally think the only ability closest to Blood Weapon is Brotherhood from MNK. If you look at it at grander scale, even most jobs are similar in some way. However, we don't say every job is carbon copy just because there're some similarities between them. There are differences you chose to ignore. It's fine by me if it fits your agenda. I understand why people make complaints and their sentiments. I might even support them even though there's something I disagree with. I made a reply simply for that strong word and the sense of long time player entitlement and superiority behind the person I quoted. I said DRK and WAR are carbon copies is an overstatement,but I did not say anyone's viewpoint is wrong. You may have your reasons and they might be solid, but carbon copy is not the right word. It just isn't.

[Nyarlha]

The same thing could be said the same to you. Just because some people agree with you doesn't make it right, especially threads like these tend to attract like-minded people because we all know lots people come to this section of the forum are mostly for making complaints. People are less likely to comment each other's opinions when they find themselves allies. Not to mention when people start complaining things, they tend to become more and more biased because they are so fixated on unleashing their anger that reasons alone are not enough, including me though.

The reason that brought me here is the word carbon copy. It is a strong word. If it's partially the same. then it's not carbon copy. Simply considering their mitigation tools and other dps options are enough to know they are not exactly the same

WAR's play style are GCD reliant, while DRK has to weave lots of oGCDs
WAR does not have ground target ability. DRK has one called Salted Earth.
WAR does not have powerful personal shield. DRK has one called TBN
WAR has Upheaval that only spend 20 gauge. DRK only has spenders which all cost 50 gauge
Infuriate augments WAR's abilities, while blood weapon does not
The list goes on

Although I can agree with Delirium = IR part, the rest I disagree. If we remove Delirium and IR out of consideration. They are simply spenders that cost 50% of you maximum gauge. GNB and NIN also share similar properties of gauge spenders. All of their spenders cost them 50% of maximum gauges. By the same perspective, there are jobs that share similar aspect of how they refill their gauges. NIN and GNB have them. SAM, RDM, MCH have them. I personally think the only ability closest to Blood Weapon is Brotherhood from MNK. If you look at it at grander scale, even most jobs are similar in some way. However, we don't say every job is carbon copy just because there're some similarities between them. There are differences you chose to ignore. It's fine by me if it fits your agenda. I understand why people make complaints and their sentiments. I might even support them even though there's something I disagree with. I made a reply simply for that strong word and the sense of long time player entitlement and superiority behind the person I quoted. I said DRK and WAR are carbon copies is an overstatement,but I did not say anyone's viewpoint is wrong. You may have your reasons and they might be solid, but carbon copy is not the right word. It just isn't.

Thank you! That's the kind of things that need to be said here.

[Bhearil]

The same thing could be said the same to you. Just because some people agree with you doesn't make it right, especially threads like these tend to attract like-minded people because we all know lots people come to this section of the forum are mostly for making complaints. People are less likely to comment each other's opinions when they find themselves allies. Not to mention when people start complaining things, they tend to become more and more biased because they are so fixated on unleashing their anger that reasons alone are not enough, including me though.

The reason that brought me here is the word carbon copy. It is a strong word. If it's partially the same. then it's not carbon copy. Simply considering their mitigation tools and other dps options are enough to know they are not exactly the same

WAR's play style are GCD reliant, while DRK has to weave lots of oGCDs
WAR does not have ground target ability. DRK has one called Salted Earth.
WAR does not have powerful personal shield. DRK has one called TBN
WAR has Upheaval that only spend 20 gauge. DRK only has spenders which all cost 50 gauge
Infuriate augments WAR's abilities, while blood weapon does not
The list goes on

Although I can agree with Delirium = IR part, the rest I disagree. If we remove Delirium and IR out of consideration. They are simply spenders that cost 50% of you maximum gauge. GNB and NIN also share similar properties of gauge spenders. All of their spenders cost them 50% of maximum gauges. By the same perspective, there are jobs that share similar aspect of how they refill their gauges. NIN and GNB have them. SAM, RDM, MCH have them. I personally think the only ability closest to Blood Weapon is Brotherhood from MNK. If you look at it at grander scale, even most jobs are similar in some way. However, we don't say every job is carbon copy just because there're some similarities between them. There are differences you chose to ignore. It's fine by me if it fits your agenda. I understand why people make complaints and their sentiments. I might even support them even though there's something I disagree with. I made a reply simply for that strong word and the sense of long time player entitlement and superiority behind the person I quoted. I said DRK and WAR are carbon copies is an overstatement,but I did not say anyone's viewpoint is wrong. You may have your reasons and they might be solid, but carbon copy is not the right word. It just isn't.

Many people use the term "carbon copy" generally speaking, doesnt mean they are equal (yet) but most of their core gameplay is shared.

I dont think Salted Earth, Blood Weapon or even TBN despite how broken it is gives DRK a substantial difference in gameplay (spam normal combo, refresh your permabuffs when needed and hog as much resources as possible for the burst window where you throw everything you can, then go back to base combo and start again) compared to WAR. They are at best small bits of flavour like Simulacrum that is basically a glorified dot every 120 seconds

Having the same ice cream with 2 different topplings, doesnt alter its taste much even if technically they are not the same

[Benn]

Many people use the term "carbon copy" generally speaking, doesnt mean they are equal (yet) but most of their core gameplay is shared.

(spam normal combo, refresh your permabuffs when needed and hog as much resources as possible for the burst window where you throw everything you can, then go back to base combo and start again)

Um, as someone whos first pick was Samurai and I played him the most.... that's basically how many classes play. You throw everything you can in burst window, and then use your base combo till all CDs alligne again. Samurai works on strict 60s and 120s burst windows and between that all you do is spam his long basic chain.

I mean, you could make that argument about most jobs in FF. That's how system works. FF is mostly a build-up-spender system and I don't see what wrong with that.

What they are trying to do is lowering the skill ceiling to make tanks accessible to everyone. You could argue DRK is an alternative to your 3 other tanks in regards to more interesting gameplay, but that isn't true anymore and most likely will stay that way.
.

This is also my take, and you may hate me for it as new player but that's the only reason FF is my first MMO where I want to main tanks. Becasue tanks already have huge responsibility in party and pressure and I absolutely would not want to have complicated mechanics on top of that and It's nice to have burst window where I throw all my skills at once, it's badass and I like that after that things are simpler and so I don't have to shift my focus that much from other tank responsibilites.

Now, I know this is strictly subjective but believe me when I say it - you have more sprout tanks in game now thanks to SE making tanks simpler and more straight foward. You may not like it - but that's a fact.

[Aword3213]

Many people use the term "carbon copy" generally speaking, doesnt mean they are equal (yet) but most of their core gameplay is shared.

I dont think Salted Earth, Blood Weapon or even TBN despite how broken it is gives DRK a substantial difference in gameplay (spam normal combo, refresh your permabuffs when needed and hog as much resources as possible for the burst window where you throw everything you can, then go back to base combo and start again) compared to WAR. They are a best small bits of flavour like Simulacrum that is basically a glorified dot every 120 seconds

Having the same ice cream with 2 different topplings, doesnt alter its taste much even if technically they are not the same

If carbon copy does not mean what it actually means, then I believe describing it as overstatement is reasonable.

I still don't think their core gameplay is similar though. Points already made in my reply you quoted. However, such matter is subjective and I respect your opinion.

[WhyAmIHere]

-snip-

you're right. People here are want to either argue against a view they oppose, or some would like to troll. However I'm not ignoring what makes WAR and DRK different.
Yes, WAR is GCD reliant versus DRK's many many oGCDs. That much is true. But my personal take is this: WAR is a more complete in concept job than DRK is.

DRK having salted earth is not a boon, nor a bust, but to say "well WAR doesn't have one" is not a merit for or against either. WAR also can't shield a single party member, like DRK/PLD(/GNB if you HoS with the Brutal Shell buff) can.
WAR's personal shield is instead a personal (or ally targeting) heal, that shares a recast with their short CD mitigation, Raw Int. TBN has a fail state, in such that there's a chance for the shield to break and you are just down 3k mana. WAR with Nascent? the most you will risk is an overheal, but you don't lose out on any resources, nor any damage, as nascent doesn't have a fail state in how it functions.
Comparing Upheaval, an oGCD, to DRK's gauge spenders is an erroneous comparison to make IMO. It's not fair to compare unless you were to say "WAR has both a 20 gauge spender and a 50 gauge spender, whereas DRK only has 50 gauge spenders." Because in this case, all that's asked of infuriate is to use it on cooldown, and in IR windows. The closest analogue DRK has IMO would be Edge of Shadow, and it's my own personal take that EoS is just Upheaval + Storms Eye, to make up for DRK only having 3 GCD weaponskills that aren't cost-reliant.
The augment to IR/Decimate from Infuriate is a secondary effect. Baseline it generates 50 gauge for a WAR to use. There is no fail state, there is no conditional, there is no catch, all it is is just press a button, get resource. DRK has that in TBN (which has the proc that has a chance to not activate if TBN doesn't break), and Blood Weapon, which has been proven time and again to be a faulty skill that has a shorter duration than Del/IR, and doesn't account for dungeon trash pulls and DRK's AoE being classified as spells. As well, WAR's infuriate has the hastened recast thing going for it that pushes more usage of fell cleave/inner chaos. There is no such comparison on DRK, nor any tank, and as best as i recall no other job at all since they removed quickened aetherflow from SCH.
WAR's also got Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, which the former is what i'd compare abyssal drain to; the latter I cant think of anything DRK would have like it, nor any tank frankly.

The list *does* go on. But the point is there are a lot of areas in DRK's kit that are clunky and make no sense when held up to scrutiny against it's peers, and cherry picking parts of or pieces of skills instead of looking at the entire kit is... not disingenuous because that's too strong an implication, but something along those lines? i don't know.
The best comparison for "well this skill is also kinda meh" i'd levee is Camouflage, but at least it has a 10% mitigation to hold it up with the parry % it offers.
GNB's resource button, Bloodfest, is just a one and done as well. No quirky timings, just press it and 2 cartridges.
PLD generates gauge from autos, so it's consistent but also not all that interactive. Plus with a double nerf (imo) to cover, really all a PLD uses it's gauge for would be shelltron, and intervention.
I'd say to end, comparing blood weapon to brotherhood is, again, an erroneous comparison to make. Brotherhood interacts with the party, and the party can interact with the MNK while it's active; there is nothing to Blood Weapon like that. It doesn't benefit anyone but the DRK.
But ultimately I'd say yes. Carbon copy is a strong word, and given my personal opinion it's also not a fitting word. To me, DRK is a pale imitation of WAR. It has tried to be its own thing, but as the game evolved the developers have been left with nothing else than to make a DRK that's the state that it is now: a clunky mess of disjointed abilities that try to be like it's peers, but fails, and the one saving grace it has in TBN is also the only skill that can affect the job's damage that has a failstate that only affects itself. (And by that i mean: if a boss goes untargetable right after you pop TBN, then it's everyone that's losing out, not just the DRK.)

[Bhearil]

Dont remember when playing samurai that my rotation was composed of 3 skills on a 1-2-3 combo. Last time i played it you had 3 different combos, without counting the plethora of things you do along the way like Soha or squeezing as many Seigan as possible during aoe situations and using different Iaijutsus depending on the situation and having to adapt to not mess your damage window. Samurai is not my cup of tea but i wont deny that its at least solid gameplay wise.

Getting new players to try tanking is good, problem is that if you get sprout tanks in exchange of losing veterans, you end having the same number of tanks as before but with crappier players. Lately im noticing that most tanks on duties are quite mediocre at best compared to the previous expansions. Before you had the bad tank from time to time but lately im getting lots of "whats cds?" or "only pull 1 group" tanks as well. And it happens with healers sometimes too where they either overheal like crazy, let people die because they dps too much or that they stare the bars doing nothing until the HP goes down without doing any dps at all despite having lots of downtime. Plus you rely on the new players not leaving the roles to play as dps

Before tanks and healers quickly learned to play and when entering Heavensward content they were at least generally "decent", now we can get tanks and healers that can barely know which buttons to press just before entering Shadowbringers despite being almost braindead to tank and heal as long as people dont screw with the (usually basic and recycled) mechanics

[shao32]

snip

WAR and DRK have exactly the same GCD gameplay with minimal diferences, both jobs spend most of the time using 1 combo waiting to FC/BS break the monotomy, both jobs have the same gauge atached on it working the same with the sole diference that WAR have more options on (not anymore on Enwalker btw with upheaval being the only diference on single target) and both work on the same 90s window for it with the same execution with Inner Delirium and both keep the same kind of damage debuff with WAR being active on his management and DRK well exist bcs they have to pretend that Darkside is usefull.

Since that makes basically the core of both jobs they are clones, on top of that WAR generates more fell cleaves with infuriate and DRK have a bunch of oGCD he throw ultra compresed every 60s bcs raid buffs, DRK spend around 10-15s doing that and then is 45s of simplified WAR gameplay loop again and again and again that's why they are called clones, bcs DRK spend more time mimic WAR gameplay that doing something diferent.

About the term "clone" is precise apart clones even in RL have never been 100% copys of each other since experiences and other stuff are involved so it's a precise term to use on DRK-WAR situation something that i see it's going to be more reinforced on EW due all the data showed for now, basically WAR and DRK are like this 2:



They have diferent armor painting and some attachments and diferent experiences and ranks but they are clones, they have the same body and same face and the same training and home, in other words the same base where they have worked on, clones with some diferences and WAR and DRK are basially the only jobs that are in this unnecesary specially when they use to be nothing alike.

[Benn]

Dont remember when playing samurai that my rotation was composed of 3 skills on a 1-2-3 combo. Last time i played it you had 3 different combos, without counting the plethora of things you do along the way like Soha or squeezing as many Seigan as possible during aoe situations and using different Iaijutsus depending on the situation and having to adapt to not mess your damage window. Samurai is not my cup of tea but i wont deny that its at least solid gameplay wise.

On tank you do 1-2-3 basic combo. On Samurai you do 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-3. It's just pushing same buttons in GCD, no matter if you have 3 of them or 6, it's just "button", 2,5 seconds, "button", 2,5 seconds, "button".

You squeez Shinten or Shoha between burst window same as DRK squeezes Bloodsplitter (equivalent of Shinten as gauge spender) and you squeezes Edge of Shadow if you can (equivalent of Shoha if your meditation stacks are 3).

On basic most jobs works the same:

1. Opening, tons of buttons to press, all OGCDs, build gauges, spend everything.
2. Downtime- basic combo + using spenders where you know you can so you have resources back on your big burst window and don't overcap gauge/mana/meditation/whatever-name-of-yet-another-gauge-is
3. Big Burst window - repeat no 1. as much as possible.

Rise, repeat.

[Aword3213]

snip

Again, these are all matter of perspectives. I could say your comparisons are erroneous too, but I'm not here to prove you wrong. I genuinely don't think there are right and wrong on such subjective matters. These comparisons mean different things in different perspectives. I failed to picture DRK and WAR anything similar even when I tried to compare them in your way. Anyway, you have your opinion and I respect that. I'm only sorry you're not enjoying the job you love.I hope the points you made and the threads you started one day get the attention they deserve.

My reply was only meant for the definition of the word, and certain self entitlement "veterans"