Tanking and Small Pulls

[EmpyreanHelios]

It's pretty simple. You let the tank set the pace because if the tank gets overwhelmed and dies, everyone else is dead. You're going to end up wasting a lot more time having to rez and run back than you will if the tank is only pulling one group at a time.

Not everyone is a MMO vet, not even if they're level 80. You don't know if that player boosted and so only has 10 levels of tanking for Trust as experience.

Tanks do start pulling more once they're feeling more confident. If you don't want to deal with a novice tank, make certain you party and queue with a tank you trust.

Then I'm not sure why they would buy boosts and then do trusts and never learn how to play their role?

I know people talk about big pulls like it's pulling 10 things all at once (Yes, certain times big pulls can get this big), but a lot of the big pulls are... well... tiny at the beginning of the game. ARR and HW dungeons are especially guilty of this. Sohm Al for example has 2 lizards to pull and then there's another 2 lizards like 10 feet away and then you hit a wall. So the BIG pull in question is 4 things. 4!

I will cut a tank some slack if they have the sprout symbol and the new player notification pops up. But when does it end on the personal responsibility front? What dungeon/trial/level can I queue in and be confident that people know how their role works? I'm not talking about knowing everything about the dungeon/trial/whatever in question. I'm talking just doing their part as well as they can.

[Jojoya]

How can they get overwhelmed and die... it's literally a question of running through 2 packs, using an aoe on each pack then spamming aoes, if you die or not is depending of the healer and the dps, not about whatever you can do as a tank outside of pressing 2 of your cooldown.

Worse, taking single pull make the cooldown usage hectic because of the cd's and the speed of killing, same if you have a scholar, single pull make them burn through ressources way faster than double pull and make them have burn through their mana way faster

You're talking like a veteran MMO player.

Try seeing things from the perspective of someone who has never played a MMO before, who doesn't understand AoE or mitigation or defensive cooldowns.

Then I'm not sure why they would buy boosts and then do trusts and never learn how to play their role?

Here's a little anecdote to demonstrate how we end up with new players who don't really know what they're doing. A friend from my old FC was just telling me last night that he convinced his sister to start playing and he plans to have her on his raid team when Endwalker releases. I asked him what other MMOs she's played in the past and he's "I don't know, do they have MMOs on Xbox? She's only played Xbox games until now".

That's how you get players at level cap who don't have a clue what they're doing.

They do it because they get told that end game is where the game in a MMO begins and that leveling is boring.

They do it because they feel pressured into it by friends who want them to rush to level cap but aren't willing to play with their friend and guide them to learning the job.

They do it because they don't understand that being a Paladin or Warrior or Dark Knight or Gunbreaker means being a tank and frequently don't even know what a tank is. The Holy Trinity does not exist outside of MMOs and isn't even used in all MMOs.

One of the big problems I see with character creation is the available starting classes are lumped together as either Disciple of War or Disciple of Magic. That does nothing to tell the player what role the class plays in a dungeon and what's expected of the role. It's not helpful to a new player that's just trying to pick a class that sounds cool to them with no idea what to expect.

SE needs to revamp character creation in a lot of ways, but especially when it comes to starting classes. Break classes down by role, list what jobs they become and also list what other jobs in each role can be unlocked through game play later. That way when someone goes "I've heard so much about Dark Knight, I want to be one" they can think "okay it is a Tank role so until I'm able to unlock it, I probably want to play Gladiator or Marauder because they will be similar".

If you die to a two pack pull either the healer was AFK and/or the tank stood in every orange circle possible. In which case, the pull size or their experience isn't the issue but their blatant lack of common sense. Medium pulls simply don't deal much damage. If you can't handle them, you have no business queuing for 60+ content. Let alone 80. Go back into the baby dungeons and get a better handle on the game mechanics.

The whole excuse "people aren't MMO veterans" needs to stop. The above isn't an example of a novice player getting their feet wet. It's someone who hasn't figured out even the basics of their chosen job yet willingly queued for Shadowbringers content and expected everyone else to simply "deal with it." Likewise, boosting is not an excuse. Go spam ARR dungeons or use Trusts. Forcing three other people to go slow because you couldn't be bothered to run Stone Vigil or use Trust NPCs is just selfish. This hypothetical person clearly didn't care about the experience of anyone else. So why should they care about theirs?

And you're assuming that everyone else in the group will be a veteran MMO player who knows exactly what they are doing. I'm leveling another alt right now and most of my dungeon groups have been all sprouts. I've had to coach many of them in what to expect. My Titan party went through 7 wipes before we got him down because they didn't know the fight and were having a hard time remembering what to do even though I gave them a couple of tips before we started (like avoid Landslide at all costs) and continued to give them tips as we progressed (when he disappears move to the edge but don't stand in red, always move immediately when you see something under you instead of trying to finish a cast first, get the player out of the gaol fast, etc).

But at least I've got the patience to help them through rather than rage quit a group because they aren't performing to some high standard.

Like it or not, players not being MMO veterans is a very real thing. It's even worse when they get convinced to boost their character by others so they get overwhelmed with 30+ skills all at once and they're trying to sort out what they're supposed to do with them. It's something that those of us who have been playing them for decades need to remember.

[Aiscence]

Snip.

For most of what you said it was about sprout and stuff, and those we are helping them. The problem is at max level.

But you need to understand that if they boosted without a friend, then get overwhelmed: it's their fault, not ours.
If it was with a friend: the friend could have helped them, and if you boosted, that means you know boost exist so you could literally have looked the job online to see what's the role of which job you wanted to pick, if you didn't and get deceived, not our problem.
And if you began at low level, you could have swapped during your leveling, you could have learned if the job attracted you and people will guide you during the leveling if you ask. There's the hall of the novice too that will explain all those things.

I'm not leaving if I see someone single pulling, i ll just do with it, but that doesnt remove the fact that if they are in my expert roulette and not a first timer: they are just sucking hard. You underestimate the number of people with multiple jobs at lvl 80, even in -reclears- of extreme or savage that will still single pull, dont use cds or know half of their kit. If you are at lvl 80, you need to at least have an idea of what is expected from you.

[kiagenwa]

I'm not leaving if I see someone single pulling, i ll just do with it, but that doesnt remove the fact that if they are in my expert roulette and not a first timer: they are just sucking hard. You underestimate the number of people with multiple jobs at lvl 80, even in -reclears- of extreme or savage that will still single pull, dont use cds or know half of their kit. If you are at lvl 80, you need to at least have an idea of what is expected from you.

To be honest, I leveled by myself to lv80 on multiple jobs and still don't know how to play expertly in my roles.


I'm not someone to play timidly as tank, tho.
Level 80 doesn't mean you have high skill.
Having the crown also doesn't mean you're an expert - I've had a party with a healer with mentor tag who seemed to have no idea how to do that-lv-47-dungeon and we wiped a few times (sprout tank).
I was surprised, though, at the confidence the tank was. We wiped but he still trust the healer and pull more next mob

[EmpyreanHelios]

To be honest, I leveled by myself to lv80 on multiple jobs and still don't know how to play expertly in my roles.


I'm not someone to play timidly as tank, tho.
Level 80 doesn't mean you have high skill.
Having the crown also doesn't mean you're an expert - I've had a party with a healer with mentor tag who seemed to have no idea how to do that-lv-47-dungeon and we wiped a few times (sprout tank).
I was surprised, though, at the confidence the tank was. We wiped but he still trust the healer and pull more next mob

Then I have to ask how you could level something to 80 and at not know how to play the class at a basic level. We're not asking anyone to be an expert, just be decent.

Ofc, those people could have leveled their jobs with main scenario roulette and crystal tower alliance roulette, but that is a separate issue.

[kiagenwa]

Then I have to ask how you could level something to 80 and at not know how to play the class at a basic level. We're not asking anyone to be an expert, just be decent.

Ofc, those people could have leveled their jobs with main scenario roulette and crystal tower alliance roulette, but that is a separate issue.

Well if you talk about basic stuff, ofc I can do.
But you talked about lv80 stuff, I'd say I might mess up a lot as a tank.

I may try when I get to ShB content. Now I'm still in HW content

[Aiscence]

To be honest, I leveled by myself to lv80 on multiple jobs and still don't know how to play expertly in my roles.


I'm not someone to play timidly as tank, tho.
Level 80 doesn't mean you have high skill.
Having the crown also doesn't mean you're an expert - I've had a party with a healer with mentor tag who seemed to have no idea how to do that-lv-47-dungeon and we wiped a few times (sprout tank).
I was surprised, though, at the confidence the tank was. We wiped but he still trust the healer and pull more next mob

As empyrean said, we aren't expecting people to be expert lol. being expert and using your job perfectly ask to go look on external site, discords etc and god we aren't putting the bar that high. I don't know the perfect rotation when I play tank, I would need to train a lot to be on point, but I know what my cd's are, where my 2 button of aoe are, that I need to press my inner release/requiescat/delirium/no mercy on cooldown and try to do whatever in it. If you fail but you still tried doing that: no one will care. But you don't know how much shit you can get by suggesting a lvl 80 tank to use a CD in a dungeon when they didnt use any yet lol.

[Jojoya]

For most of what you said it was about sprout and stuff, and those we are helping them. The problem is at max level.

Except we have sprouts at max level so it still applies. Being level 80 doesn't mean much when you've paid to skip 70 levels of content.

[Aiscence]

Except we have sprouts at max level so it still applies. Being level 80 doesn't mean much when you've paid to skip 70 levels of content.

If you paid to boost, it's your responsibility to be able to perform at the level needed before queuing into higher level thing. I boosted my drk during SB, I asked my friend to wait 10 minutes for me to read my skills, separate them in a "more or less way" hit a dummy just to see how the combos worked and we went in. Literally 10 minutes. But I can see you coming "yeah but you are a mmo vet": the only reason we are a vet in your eyes is because we care about not being a dead weight to others.

People wont even read 2 lines above theirs or hit google when they have a question, why would they even care about learning anything if people like you will defend them to the grave. Because if running through 2 groups of enemies, use a thing that says "reduce damage taken" and press 2 aoe skill (most dungeon only has 2 groups between each wall, hence this example) is considered "optimizing" or "not beginner friendly" what is? It's literally the same as putting a wooden circle block in a circle hole when you are 2yo: if there is more than 1 enemy, press the buttons that have a circle as an icon on your bars and press the ones with a shield or a wall as an icon, how thoughtful of the devs to make the dungeon gameplay affordable for a 2 year old.

When are they supposed to learn that if not during the leveling? How can you do lvl 70 to 80 without even reading your skills, sprout or not, there's no excuse.

[ForteNightshade]

And you're assuming that everyone else in the group will be a veteran MMO player who knows exactly what they are doing. I'm leveling another alt right now and most of my dungeon groups have been all sprouts. I've had to coach many of them in what to expect. My Titan party went through 7 wipes before we got him down because they didn't know the fight and were having a hard time remembering what to do even though I gave them a couple of tips before we started (like avoid Landslide at all costs) and continued to give them tips as we progressed (when he disappears move to the edge but don't stand in red, always move immediately when you see something under you instead of trying to finish a cast first, get the player out of the gaol fast, etc).

But at least I've got the patience to help them through rather than rage quit a group because they aren't performing to some high standard.

Like it or not, players not being MMO veterans is a very real thing. It's even worse when they get convinced to boost their character by others so they get overwhelmed with 30+ skills all at once and they're trying to sort out what they're supposed to do with them. It's something that those of us who have been playing them for decades need to remember.

Notice how I specifically said 60+ and Shadowbringers content? Therefore, your example wouldn't apply because we're all beyond the "new player" criteria. While someone at level 60 may still be inexperienced, they should have a general understanding of how their job plays and the function of their role. For the sake of simplicity, we'll define "general" as knowing to dodge orange circles and use specific tank CDs like Sentinel and Rampart. This alone more than qualifies you to pull two packs. 4-6 mobs simply aren't dealing enough damage to remotely hurt a tank with those basic concepts grasped. Hell, it's borderline enough a WHM could spam Cure I and still keep them alive. Which speaks volumes to how severely nerfed much of Heavenswards' content is nowadays.

So not only does this completely throw out your example, but highlights just how simple "medium pulls" actually are. It doesn't require some great skill set but is almost a sort of litmus test: "Have you bothered to read your ability tooltops?"

If you choose to boost your character, the onus is you to practice your chosen job before partaking in higher level content. If that means spamming PotD, ARR dungeons or even FATEs, then go ahead. I leveled my first tank almost entirely through the Yo-kai way back when. I promptly took it to Stone Vigil and Darkhold because I didn't feel it fair to queue for Heavensward dungeons when I was a relatively new tank player. Those are my "high standard." Lofty and imposing, I assure you. Queuing into Holminster Switch with a Warrior you boosted just shows you have no consideration for your party mates nor their experience. You're essentially demanding they adapt to your playstyle. Since you didn't care about their experience. Why should they care about yours?

Except we have sprouts at max level so it still applies. Being level 80 doesn't mean much when you've paid to skip 70 levels of content.

And the solution is not to queue for Shadowbringers content until you've practiced at low levels first. Or use Trusts. Buying a jump potion isn't an excuse to be hopelessly clueless in Holminster Switch.