PVP REWARDS SUGGESTION (FEAST)

[Alexandre_Noireau]

You make the board? You win. You miss the board? You lose, better luck next time champ. Your participation trophy is the wolf collars you get and the reminder when you see an armor/mount that you didn't get.

And this mindset and reward structure has proven to be extremely succesful:
Everyone enjoys PvP, speak highly of it, the competition is rampant and exciting, and we even have a massive streaming community and tournements organi...

Oh wait, PvP is a failure.
Wasted rewards on an uncessuful piece of side content. Releasing all those rewards open to the public would only save them of being linked to that piece of terrible content that only a small fraction of players "enjoy".

Precisely that it is a competitive mindset the one the Feast adresses to, in the worse possible way, is the greater mistake of The Feast. And it will be for the new PvP mode.
The reason why Frontlines stand as the only bearable and actually played PvP content is exactly that is not highly competitive, very rewarding and open to individual progression pacing rather to be forced into timegates. Sadly the Garo event is not in place anymore but it should totally make a return.

The ishgardian restoration is another show of how bad competitive systems actually are, only a handful cared, the content was designed to die, now is just an empty side actitivity that levels you up.
I love how they try to defend competitive game modes in a game which is basically the anti-thesis both in design and community to the normal regular highly competitive mindset of other titles. And it shows, or more exactly: It doesn't - No one cares about PvP or the Restoration and they became dead wasted content.

Nicely done.

[Tachion]

It's ok to have niche content that only a subset of players engage in. There are many such systems in FFXIV, competitive pvp being just one of them.

[Ixon]

And this mindset and reward structure has proven to be extremely succesful:
Everyone enjoys PvP, speak highly of it, the competition is rampant and exciting, and we even have a massive streaming community and tournements organi...

Oh wait, PvP is a failure.
Wasted rewards on an uncessuful piece of side content. Releasing all those rewards open to the public would only save them of being linked to that piece of terrible content that only a small fraction of players "enjoy".

Precisely that it is a competitive mindset the one the Feast adresses to, in the worse possible way, is the greater mistake of The Feast. And it will be for the new PvP mode.
The reason why Frontlines stand as the only bearable and actually played PvP content is exactly that is not highly competitive, very rewarding and open to individual progression pacing rather to be forced into timegates. Sadly the Garo event is not in place anymore but it should totally make a return.

The ishgardian restoration is another show of how bad competitive systems actually are, only a handful cared, the content was designed to die, now is just an empty side actitivity that levels you up.
I love how they try to defend competitive game modes in a game which is basically the anti-thesis both in design and community to the normal regular highly competitive mindset of other titles. And it shows, or more exactly: It doesn't - No one cares about PvP or the Restoration and they became dead wasted content.

Nicely done.

No one likes every piece of content in this game. That's the beauty of it. I actually really enjoy the PVP in this game, as do others, just like every other niche game aspect: Mahjong, Solo PotD, LoV, TTT, Chocobo Racing, BLU Mage, Ultimates, House decorating, Crafting, Gathering, etc, etc. This game does decently well at catering to the majority of players interests, while also showing attention to the smaller interests as well. If YOU hate PVP, don't play it. If YOU like PVP and want the rewards, play it. You wont see me making threads about how unfair it is to have to do BLU raids for the Morbol mount. It's simple, do the content you want to do for the rewards you want.

You're right though, competitiveness is not for everyone, but it's also not meant for everyone. Some people actually like competition and heaven forbid the dev team makes content for a minority part of their community to sate their particular interests. You can say PVP is a failure, but the devs apparently don't, and there is enough of a player base to support PVP and competitiveness in this game that we have had 20 Feast Seasons, 4 Fronlines maps, 2 Rival Wings Maps, and a NEW PVP mode coming soon to Endwalker.

Oh, and the rewards aren't a waste, I wear mine everyday.

[Alexandre_Noireau]

It's ok to have niche content that only a subset of players engage in. There are many such systems in FFXIV, competitive pvp being just one of them.

With all of them being replayable and their rewards open to adquisition.
Is ok to have PvP, is bad to attach one time exclusive rewards to a reward system that doesn't encourage but discourages competition. And are unatainbable by the playerbase. Basically punishing anyone for "not showing up." That is called FOMO - Fear of missing out - One of the most hurtful and predatory design practices of the industry.

No one likes every piece of content in this game. That's the beauty of it. I actually really enjoy the PVP in this game, as do others, just like every other niche game aspect: Mahjong, Solo PotD, LoV, TTT, Chocobo Racing, BLU Mage, Ultimates, House decorating, Crafting, Gathering, etc, etc. This game does decently well at catering to the majority of players interests, while also showing attention to the smaller interests as well. If YOU hate PVP, don't play it. If YOU like PVP and want the rewards, play it. You wont see me making threads about how unfair it is to have to do BLU raids for the Morbol mount. It's simple, do the content you want to do for the rewards you want.

You can say PVP is a failure, but the devs apparently don't, and there is enough of a player base to support PVP and competitiveness in this game that we have had 20 Feast Seasons, 4 Fronlines maps, 2 Rival Wings Maps, and a NEW PVP mode coming soon to Endwalker.

Oh, and the rewards aren't a waste, I wear mine everyday.

With the diference that in all your examples the rewards are attainable by the players. While in PvP rewards become impossible to get - Making it the only part of the game where that happend.
If you want to compare PvP rewards with PvE rewards you truly don't understand what a reward structure is: For them to be the same Ultimates should only reward the first 100 players that beat it (first 80?) and Morbol Mounts should be locked only to the first 100 players that finish the Carnival or whatever you have to do, once that limit is reached those rewards should be removed from the game and never been attainable for no one else - Just then your examples would be precise.

20 Feast seasons mean nothing, is a piece of garbage as content, just thinking back in the day it had a trailer and the dev team intended it to be an e-sport is enough to make anyone laugh. And Rival Wings doesn't exist, what a waste of resources. The only relevant and proper form of PvP is Frontlines.

You haven't earned them though

In a truly competitive game mode, your rewards would be subject to decay or replacing - If you were to not qualify once again on the board you should have everything taken away from you - That would be worthy of praise and pride and an actual test of skill, as you would actually have to be constantly playing and facing an ever growing competition.
As it stands, the PvP rewards are a waste: you either traded, purchased, botted or wasted unhealthy amounts of time on it, the chances of the rewards being on legit skilled players is slim: not to mention several have then sold their accounts or just abandoned them, making all the effort of those "20 seasons" a waste.

I never said "PvP" was bad, i said highly competitive mindset and the reward structure of The Feast are unhealthy and bad, proof of it, the reception of the Feast through the years by the community: An unworthy piece of content memed to hell and back which sadly hides some of the better designed mounts and glamours.

[Tachion]

My sympathies for having to take part in Feast on Primal, but saying things like "The chance of the rewards being on legit skilled players is slim" is just a bitter & ignorant take that makes you look silly. You're upset with the reward system, great, so is everyone else including top 100 feast players which is why it's getting changed in Endwalker.

[Alexandre_Noireau]

My sympathies for having to take part in Feast on Primal, but saying things like "The chance of the rewards being on legit skilled players is slim" is just a bitter & ignorant take that makes you look silly. You're upset with the reward system, great, so is everyone else including top 100 feast players which is why it's getting changed in Endwalker.

it is indeed.
But is not that ignorant. If you cannot guarantee actual fair play - you will never have a true competition that reflects the skill of the players - and this is true for sports and competitions of anykind. This is why - after the crazy 80s and 90s sports became so focused on drug testing and rewards, titles and careers were cutdown and this has no happend in FFXIV.

And a new PvP mode won't solve the issue for me - The rewards i want from the Feast are unobtainable even if i were to be top 1 of the multiverse. Them to be time locked to a season instead of each season giving a reward ticket, pass, or have some sort of economy of rewards that gives me options would be an actual solution: And you could just keep pumping seasons forever. By the end of it - If you finished among the top 100, you get to pick your reward.

No other part of this game works like this. This is not comparable to things like legacy-status rewards, not even the Restoration being truly honest - Even if time gating was also an issue.

[Lihtleita]

i think if you put in the really old stuff but undyable and and obviously not with the name of the original (like an "imitation pack wolf coat") but mark it up to 100 wolf collars instead of marks, it would open it up to players who joined post hw while still keeping a lot of the value such an item has.
it would still require doing ranked feast for 10 seasons minimum, and maybe encourage people to get in queue for a long term goal.

[Dewslam]

We need more exclusive and limited items, not less.
Stop asking to be able to get everything. Go earn it if you want it, it'll mean more to you that way.

Just popping into this thirteen page thread to share my opinion: more exclusive and limited items is the absolute worst route to take. They breed a lot of negativity, toxicity and elitism as well as killing the motivation to keep playing for people who narrowly miss margins or simply can't reach whatever the arbitrary barrier of entry. One of the absolute classic examples of this coming straight from World of Warcraft being the legendary black AQ mount which only a handful of people managed to get, its window of access being open for exactly ten hours per server, and its permanent exclusive status rendering so many mount collectors collections incomplete forever that they lost interest in the game because, through no real lack of effort or skill on their own but rather the simple fact that they hadn't managed to reach one specific point within one specific ten hour window, they'd never be able to close that gap and future additions only made it worse. Later game additions of exclusive legendary equipment and items produces some of the least pleasant gameplay experiences I've ever had in an MMO; entire guilds would shatter if the right person didn't get the fancy toy they wanted despite everyone wanting, and often being able to use, it simply due to the prestige and rarity of it all.

Exclusivity and limited time items are, ultimately, selfish and detrimental to the game at large. They cater to an increasingly small percentage of players at the expense of literally every other member of the community - and that's just terrible design on principal. Earlier in this thread someone tried to compare Feast rewards to the Ultimate raid rewards, but it's a fundamentally flawed comparison because the Ultimate items aren't going anywhere and whenever someone new gets an ultimate weapon - most people are supportive of it. Which is always the funny part, the loudest voices complaining that more people completing ultimate raids through whatever means "cheapens" the achievement are the players who usually haven't even touched that content themselves. Most ultimate raiders don't care because someone else getting the same toy they do doesn't devalue their experience and time in the least and generally people can recognize that. Yet when the idea of even bringing back ages old retired PVP items the tears come out about how doing so would devalue personal achievement while calling the people who want items accessible to everyone greedy and selfish.

In short: if someone else having a similar item to you upsets you, you probably just need to grow up.

[Ixon]

You haven't earned them though

In a truly competitive game mode, your rewards would be subject to decay or replacing - If you were to not qualify once again on the board you should have everything taken away from you - That would be worthy of praise and pride and an actual test of skill, as you would actually have to be constantly playing and facing an ever growing competition.
As it stands, the PvP rewards are a waste: you either traded, purchased, botted or wasted unhealthy amounts of time on it, the chances of the rewards being on legit skilled players is slim: not to mention several have then sold their accounts or just abandoned them, making all the effort of those "20 seasons" a waste.

I never said "PvP" was bad, i said highly competitive mindset and the reward structure of The Feast are unhealthy and bad, proof of it, the reception of the Feast through the years by the community: An unworthy piece of content memed to hell and back which sadly hides some of the better designed mounts and glamours.

"You haven't earned them though" - Not up to you decide what I did and did not earn. Though from my point of view, I have it, I earned it.
"In a truly competitive game mode, your rewards would be subject to decay or replacing " - No? Players earn unique rewards for being the best in a particular season in a lot of different games.
"If you were to not qualify once again on the board you should have everything taken away from you" - Again no? If I got a top500 spray in Overwatch for season 10, I don't lose it if I am not top 500 in season 11. If I win the superbowl in 2018, I don't lose my ring if I don't in 2019.
"That would be worthy of praise and pride and an actual test of skill, as you would actually have to be constantly playing and facing an ever growing competition." - That's not how competition works? It means you were the best in that given time period, not that you always have to be the best forever or we take away your shiny.
"wasted unhealthy amounts of time on it" - Wasted unhealthy amounts of time??? You do know this is an MMO forums right? The name of the game is wasting unhealthy amounts of time lmao. To your other points, I can't control the people who violate ToS, SE does. I report players all the time, and if nothing happens, that's on SE, I earned my place.
"An unworthy piece of content memed to hell and back which sadly hides some of the better designed mounts and glamours." - This can literally be said about any other piece of content anyone doesn't like.

Feast is by no means perfect, no one will argue you on that, but it has been enjoyable enough for those who do enjoy it to play it over the years despite the rewards(and there are some ugly ones too). People like yourself, who don't even play PVP to begin with, just get all bent out of shape when a cool thing drops that you don't care enough to get when it was relevant to do so.

[Ixon]

Exclusivity and limited time items are, ultimately, selfish and detrimental to the game at large. They cater to an increasingly small percentage of players at the expense of literally every other member of the community - and that's just terrible design on principal. Earlier in this thread someone tried to compare Feast rewards to the Ultimate raid rewards, but it's a fundamentally flawed comparison because the Ultimate items aren't going anywhere and whenever someone new gets an ultimate weapon - most people are supportive of it. Which is always the funny part, the loudest voices complaining that more people completing ultimate raids through whatever means "cheapens" the achievement are the players who usually haven't even touched that content themselves. Most ultimate raiders don't care because someone else getting the same toy they do doesn't devalue their experience and time in the least and generally people can recognize that. Yet when the idea of even bringing back ages old retired PVP items the tears come out about how doing so would devalue personal achievement while calling the people who want items accessible to everyone greedy and selfish.

In short: if someone else having a similar item to you upsets you, you probably just need to grow up.

Negativity, toxicity, and elitism happens in dungeons in ffxiv, it happens everywhere, so singling it out to just time limited or exclusive items is a weird take. Does it happen more often? Probably. But that happens in literally everything that's a competition, no one likes to lose. Comparing a 10-hour event to a 1-3 month on average event it a bit of a stretch tbh, and if someone quits cause they can't get that one thing, sometimes you can't always get what you want idk what to tell you.

If you don't think there isn't elitism to from people who clear Ultimates on the patch it was released vs people who clear with better gear down the line, oof. And if you don't think if someone gets something easier than someone who had to get it the original, most likely more difficult way, big oof. It really just seems like you don't like competition, which is fine if you don't. Some of us do though, so let us that do enjoy what little competition we get.

In short: If someone else having a item you didn't get upsets you, you probably just need to grow up.