Smn Rework Suggestions After LL

[ssunny2008]

What side of smn was ever DoT related... at all in ff series?

I don´t know why ppl still compare this game to other FF titles. It´s an MMORPG and those work way different than solo games, even if FF´s lore is in it´s core. The FF games have evolved and changed their gameplay over the years too, so...

[aveyond-dreams]

Gee it's almost as if this Final Fantasy XIV, as in the 14th title of the series so logically it would follow that some jobs stay thematically consistent-and improve upon their gameplay instead of turning them into ghosts of their former selves. Summoner has never been about poisoning your enemies/wearing them down with dots or wielding pets so pathetically weak that a substantial number of people want them deleted altogether in favor of actual summons.

[ssunny2008]

Gee it's almost as if this Final Fantasy XIV, as in the 14th title of the series so logically it would follow that some jobs stay thematically consistent-and improve upon their gameplay instead of turning them into ghosts of their former selves. Summoner has never been about poisoning your enemies/wearing them down with dots or wielding pets so pathetically weak that a substantial number of people want them deleted altogether in favor of actual summons.

I don´t think that any FF title has been about Dots so far, but it´s pretty common in MMORPG´s. You need something to take care about while playing different boss mechanics. And just because something in the past didn´t had mechanic X, doesn´t mean that a new game of the series wouldn´t be slightly different, especially when it wents from soloplay to multiplayer and have to take care about balancing with a bunch of other classes.
I would like to see a real summoner too, but the new isn´t one... just a string of some animations. Imagine it would be like the FF11 summoner with tons of pets, but what would you do here? Staying afk and watching? You need something to do next to your pets and Dots are a nice addition to this.

I personally would even welcome MMORPG extended gameplay aka "skilltrees". Give us one tree which works more with dots, while the other is more pet-related and stuff like summoning bahamut or being able to have 2-3 pets at the same time could be the final skills. Ppl could choose, what they prefer and everyone is happy. But it´ll never happen anyway.
On the other hand i won´t believe that the most ppl would enjoy a real summoner in this game since it would be way different from the older games one button play to summon nothing but an animation. (Oh wait...)

It´s still a MMORPG in the first case and ppl shoul beware of this before they start their rundown of all FF games on their PS. The experience will be way different than the stuff they got used to. You could even copy & paste any other graphics on it. Even the whole FF14 lore got thrown into it without many thoughts into it. It matches together somehow, but it´s far away from being that FF experience i know from all solo games of the series i´ve played.

[aveyond-dreams]

I vastly prefer our new trance abilities while waiting to summon our next pet as opposed to manging *poisons.* We now get to call down torandoes, sandwich enemies between stone slabs, and get up close and personal in melee range with Ifrit’s dash. If you prefer dots to this, I’m sorry but summoner was never for you in the first place. I’ve played FFXI’s summoner and while waiting to use my next pet ability I can heal my trusts or throw out black mage nukes. The thought of using dots never crossed my mind while playing it in that game.

If you do not consider 6.0’s summoner a real summoner then there is really nothing left to say. The logic being used here is so reductive that basically every job is just “a string of animations.” The dot version of this job should have never existed, because now there are people with a skewed perception of what a summoner is. The simple reality is that FFXIV’s affliction warlock looked boring and was torture to play.

Other longtime FF vets like myself who have been waiting for the past 8 years for summoner to be added to FFXIV finally have our class, which newer players are also extremely excited for, just after Sage and Reaper. The older FF games will forever serve as both a thematic and mechanical basis for recurring jobs like this one.

[MagiusNecros]

Doomtrain inflicts poison amongst other status effects. So did Hades in VII. Other summons in the franchise also enabled you to learn Bio/Poison magic in VI.

DoTs in Summoning classes are just rare and stuck on one summon in a few games.

If anything if they remove SMN DoTs they should give Miasma and Bio to SCH. Or back to Black Mage.

[Garnix]

Even the whole FF14 lore got thrown into it without many thoughts into it. It matches together somehow, but it´s far away from being that FF experience i know from all solo games of the series i´ve played.

Or maybe it somehow matches together because a lot of thought was put into it?...
And regarding DoTs, there still seems to be a sort of short DoT during the wind phase, which makes a lot more sense for SMN than things like miasma IMO.
Also, DoTs have always been part of FF. And it was traditionally associated with Black mage's poison.
I think they will obviously add a DoT mage in 7.0 (either green mage or time mage if I had to guess). And I think having SMN and DoT mage be two separate job is fine. Especially because SMN DoTs are not great in my opinion and a bit lackluster (maybe that's a hot take?). They are currently just something you had to pay attention to because it was there and that did not add much gameplay-wise than any other spell would. They could be a long cooldown nuke and it would pretty much be the same thing, but less tedious.
You just put them in your rotation and be done with it. It's the same reason they are removing NIN's DoT. It is just busy work. BLM at least have a proc tied to it...
SMN has basically nothing to make the DoTs interesting/rewarding. So I much rather have them make a separate DoT job in the future which whole gameplay focuses on DoTs at least as much as BRD does.

[Dyvid]

I'm tired of the weak arguments of Summoner was never this in other FF games. Maybe you should go back and play all the titles again because clearly you didn't even know what Summoner was through the many titles.

FFI and II didn't have summoner
FFIII had Sumoner; a Mage job that would cast magical beast either provided offense or defense effects.
FFIV was a Black Mage / Summoner Hybrid so yea, Rydia could cast poison, bio, and virus.
FFV Summoner; a Mage job that would cast magical beast either provided offense or defense effects. On top of that players could subjob BLM, RDM, WHM
FFVI through FFVIII; players equipped summons to learn spells and abilites
FFIX, FFX, FFXI; Summoner was a White Mage / Summoner Hybird
FFXI, FFXII & FFXIII; Summons were pet like

So surprise, Summoner comes in all shapes and sizes. FFXIV was all about management, might be why they had books as weapons.... You had to manage your MP, your Aetherflow, your Pets, your DoTs, what targets to attack. Slowly SE's brilliance has chipped away at concepts many SMN mains enjoyed. I wonder if all the people who say they welcome these changes are also going to the ones to drop the job they currently play and main Summoner 6.0.

[aveyond-dreams]

Yeah, this is really starting to sound like the mass hysteria that occurred after they changed Astro's cards, or the bizarre episode regarding male Viera height and them not being macho enough. The perception that summoner has no unifying theme and that it was ok for it to be a poison mage in this game is not connected to reality. I can't take anyone seriously who brings up Rydia's bio/poison spells and giving the impression that it was some critical part of her repertoire. It wasn't. Full stop. Any summon we've had in the mainline series that focused on side effects was almost always overshadowed and ignored in favor of summons that act normally and deal damage. FFIII's *evoker* was the borderline useless class that focused on status effects-FFIII's summoner specialized in traditional summon magic for large amounts of damage and FFV's follows the same model.

So no, the facts do not line up in favor of a dot warlock. This is objective reality.

Spoiler alert when they did the above changes we still have people who play (and like!) the new Astro such as myself and after so much nitpicking about height there is still a huge amount of people who want to play male Viera reapers once Endwalker drops. The affliction warlocks we are leaving behind in the dust may have been SMNs but they sure weren't summoners. I concede that it was unjust for SE to string them along with the false perception that summoners were supposed to be like this when history has proven otherwise, but now that the bubble has finally burst it's time to move on. 80/20 rule time. It is exponentially more beneficial for them to release a summoner with more straightforward gameplay and captivating spell effects than to continue catering to a minority that is stuck in a rut and unwilling to change for the better. So yes, more people will pick up and main 6.0’s summoner than 5.0’s affliction warlock and the game will be better off for it.

[CasterSvarog]

I do like how visually the 6.0 Summoner looks and works. Being able to summon the OG ARR primals and having the ability to augment our attacks is pretty cool and the change with Dreamwyrm trace into the current Firebird trace was kind of inevitable and neat. But i do have a few issues with it:

You have tons of different Instant casts, from Ruin 4, the two traces, the Garuda and Titan phases and Ruin 3 even having a 1.5 second cast time now. But for ogcd skills all we have is Energy drain/siphon, Fester, Painflare, Phoenix's buff, Deathflare, Aetherpact and Enkindle, and a lot of these are mutually exclusive towards each, you can't use Enkindles and Aetherpact in the same phase.
Personally, I think that Energy drain/siphon should go back down to 30 seconds to create a constant source of oGCDs, and the Summons/Trace buttons should be made into ogcds as well. Then you could at least have some kind of opener like the one we have now: Using Egi assault 2 which is used to weave in dreadwyrm trace, then we can use insta casting ruin 3 to weave death flare and Demi-Bahamut. I think something like that would at least make it feel faster.
Speaking of Demi's, they should not have changed how Fountain of fire and Brand of purgatory work, because now it's just: one button for single targets, and one is for Aoe, and honestly just sounds a little too boring and hits the healer problem of here's one button and the two ogcds you'll get during that phase. This also applies to Dreadwyrm trace as well, which has the same problem.

Granted there's still a lot we don't know about the job yet, like any skills that Yoshi-p didn't have on his hotbars, but with what we have right now that's just what I think should be done.

[Roda]

you can't use Enkindles and Aetherpact in the same phase.

Just a minor nitpick, you should be ABLE to use Searing Light (new Aetherpact/Devotion) during a semidemi phase. You can't weave it with the summon spell itself, but once the primal animation ends, carbuncle should return and be able to be commanded to use it. Though, you probably shouldn't use it during the semidemi phase unless you're just about to go into your demi phase, or you've messed up royally in an encounter and desynced yourself from the group's burst. (could change as we get numbers, but it would be confusing if your big blockbuster summons didn't get the buff phase focus.)

Personally, I think [...] the Summons/Trace buttons should be made into ogcds as well. Then you could at least have some kind of opener like the one we have now: Using Egi assault 2 which is used to weave in dreadwyrm trace, then we can use insta casting ruin 3 to weave death flare and Demi-Bahamut. I think something like that would at least make it feel faster.

I'm not sure about the summons/trance being ogcds would be a good thing. With the loss of egi assaults, ruin II (lol), DoT hardcast timings, and a decent supply of ruin IVs, we've lost a good amount of ogcds outside of our semi/demi phases, and that could cause cast timing issues in between our phases. But that's just a gut feeling. I'd have to actually have some finger feelings to be sure about it.