Smn Rework Suggestions After LL

[ssunny2008]

You know a class is broken, when you have to constantly defend it in every conversation.

Players just cry way to much about gameplay, just because they like some aesthetics or the role to be a SMN, MNK, MCH, whatever class is discussed permanently.

There is no acceptance for those, who like a class as it is and played it for ages. There isn´t even acceptance for those, who finished any content with a class, not just the braindead dungeons. It lacks fully of acceptance, because ppl are selfish and want everything to be catered to them.

That´s the big issue, not that a class is more special, not so often played or without 1000 meme´s. FF14 has so many class to offer and a bunch of ppl still insist that the last class on gods earth needs to be made for them for whatever reason. (And yes, in the most cases those ppl are just bad or too lazy to practice a class, maybe even feared like "i can´t do this" and stay on an easy job to cater their self-consciousness.)
This brought us to the point we´re at.

And i really get the "love" to the new SMN. But gameplay-wise it´s NOTHING! Atleast not the stuff Yoshi showed us. It´s just another step to the class homogenization with some bling-bling to cater some ppl meanwhile a bunch of current SMN mains is getting fckd up. Objectively seen SMN will make a step back in complexity and uniqueness, no matter if someone likes it or not.

EDIT: Really ppl needs to stop to get blinded by minor issues, some animations or even self-made issues. Do you play a game to play or just to watch some animations and for freeloot by pressing 3 buttons in an order?

[Vallhallix]

Players just cry way to much about gameplay, just because they like some aesthetics or the role to be a SMN, MNK, MCH, whatever class is discussed permanently.

SMN main here, i'm not getting screwed over at all, my class finally seems like it has a solid fix and actual rotation. And rid itself of all it's clunky mechanics. I will miss stuff like baning additional targets which wasn't even complex in the first place, neither was refreshing two dots, but I prefer my class plays like an actual one instead of a confused disaster of a class when every other class in the game has all but tightened and smoothed out their gameplay, and it was at it's worst in shb especially with the clunky pet abilities which the MAJORITY of people did not like, with phoenix being the only highlight of an uninspired clunky rotation. People cried, because it was bad, people actually swapped to the other casters because it was that horrible to play, loyalist like me stuck with the class even though I acknowledged it was bad. Stop pretending it's just outsiders MOST of us smn mains are happy with this change and rejoicing, not until I came to this dps section did I find smns complaining about this change, which pretty much happens with every change here to begin with.

This is what most people wanted. More summons that worked in the line of phoenix, we even wanted Bahamut to have skills in the same vain of Phoenix, to make his phase less boring, I was here months ago when people were demanding it. They listened. All while keeping SMN's mobility intact, and fixing other minor issues. They took 3 poorly designed clunky pets, 1 completely useless one, and made them into something that works, something where all 3 are utilized. Now they have a proper base for the class, and should not suffer as much confusion going forward like they've done with every single expansion for the previous SMN. SMN working like a reskinned arcanist, and being bundled in with Scholar was a mistake, they spent too many expansions trying to fix that mistake. The summons changing the SMN abilities with the introduction of Phoenix was the best thing to happen to the class in years, and the logical thing for them to build upon. Now they have a proper direction for SMN as we've seen with the Ifrit charge and melee, this opens the door for them to get creative with future abilities instead of spending each expansion trying to add on new things to an already busted class. No doubt in future content they will add new skills to our existing summon phases.

This will probably also fix how terrible Summoner plays low level compared to every other class in the game.

[rewd]

This is what most people wanted. [...] No doubt in future content they will add new skills to our existing summon phases.

Lots of things to address here:

- You didn't get more summons that worked like Phoenix. You got avatars that show up and go away after 2 seconds. What you actually got is 3 different phases where you fight as a channeler/geomancer/elementalist, not a summoner

- Let's compare old Bahamut and new Bahamut. Old Bahamut was a burst phase and you could feel the build up to it. In order to maximize DPS you needed to prepare for it and get 4 Ruin IV stacks. Movement was something you had manage, not necessarily because of pet AI (which was only a problem in the last ~5 seconds anyway), but because you would alternate instacasts with hardcasts. You could deal with movement by shuffling around your use of instacasts while still keeping your Wyrmwaves total to 8. You could even have the option to decouple Bahamut from DWT.
New Bahamut: there's no build up, Bahamut is a GCD you use at the start of the fight. It is actually the build up to something minor. Movement? Not an issue, you get to spam the same button over and over again which is of course an instacast, so you could run a marathon if you wanted to. We did get two cool animations in return, though. If you think the new Bahamut is more fun/less boring, then good for you. Sadly, me and other people wouldn't mind to have to use their brain even just a little.

- They kept mobility intact? They took a very mobile caster and made it a phys ranged DPS. SMN was very mobile but its mobility options were tied to DPS, so you still had to manage those (Assaults and Ruin IV). Now, all gone, you are the... Instacast mage, I guess?

- You didn't get functional pets, you get 3 animations. Pretty, but still animations.

[ssunny2008]

Stringent lore restrictions that negatively impact people's enjoyment =/= the thematic basis or structure of longstanding jobs. If you cannot understand this, there is little point in pressing the issue further because you are clearly grasping at anything and everything to justify the failed state of current SMN.

I don´t grasp for anything to justify the current state of SMN. I´ve claimed more than once that both are no SMN´s for me, just with the addition that the new one is nothing more than -dots +animations = still no real SMN gameplay.
And it´s still YOUR enjoyment, not those of others. Some ppl enjoy the current SMN, some might enjoy the new SMN, i would enjoy something way different. And you started the "FF series lore" about SMN as argument, just to not care about it in the next moment. It makes the argument completely invalid and shows, that you grasp for stuff to argue for your own, not for others, not for the lore and not for the gameplay. (Since you don´t even know, if it would really match your expectations.)

[Roda]

Stringent lore restrictions that negatively impact people's enjoyment =/= the thematic basis or structure of longstanding jobs. If you cannot understand this, there is little point in pressing the issue further because you are clearly grasping at anything and everything to justify the failed state of current SMN. After 8 years of warlocks telling me to go play another class or another game, I’m merely saying the same that was said to me for so long.

K but the lore reasons for mechanics that made the class complex and engaging was a positive impact for me, and other people who currently play summoner, and they made sense in the context of Hydaelyn and allowed for fun class fantasy. The only thing about the lore that seemed off was the "sorry we can't make egis more graphically impressive 'cause ps3/potato users" justifications for the egis' designs and the "sorry we can't give you any more egis 'cause we ran out of ideas".

But really who died and made your opinions the definition of "true summoner"? People have repeatedly made the point that the summoner role has NEVER been consistent in FF. And yet you meet their points with name calling and gatekeeping and just sating "true summoner" like it's fact. We've all been playing A DEFINITIVE NUMBERED FINAL FANTASY® BRAND SUMMONER™ for 8 years, but no that doesn't count because it doesn't count because...?? Oh right, it's a design that didn't line up with your own personal opinions.

Did you even play the current iteration of summoner?
Can you give any constructive criticisms of it outside of "I don't like dots" or saying something incredibly vague like saying it's not a "true summoner"? Can you contribute to the discussion about how it will play different from what we currently have that isn't tied to its attack animations?

[aveyond-dreams]

I have played every mainline FF title and I have levelled SMN to 80 a grand total of one time in comparison to the multiple times I've levelled BLM and RDM across several of my alts. Poison mage gameplay sucks. When I want to grind Eden/NieR for glams as a caster I vastly prefer those two classes as opposed to affliction warlock. I know what a real summoner looks and feels like because I have experienced every game where they've shown up. If you get it, you get it. If you don't, sorry. Go look up on youtube what summoners have been like in past games so you can get an idea of what I mean in terms of its aesthetic and gameplay. In 6.0 I will proceed to actually play summoner beyond simply levelling it and forgetting about it afterwards along with my other classes.

I'm largely uninterested in hearing your defense of a job that got so bad it had to be reworked from the ground up.

[Roda]

Did you even play the current iteration of summoner?
Can you give any constructive criticisms of it outside of "I don't like dots" or saying something incredibly vague like saying it's not a "true summoner"? Can you contribute to the discussion about how it will play different from what we currently have that isn't tied to its attack animations?

I have played every mainline FF title and I have levelled SMN to 80 a grand total of one time in comparison to the multiple times I've levelled BLM and RDM across several of my alts. Poison mage gameplay sucks. When I want to grind Eden/NieR for glams as a caster I vastly prefer those two classes as opposed to affliction warlock. I know what a real summoner looks and feels like because I have experienced every game where they've shown up. If you get it, you get it. If you don't, sorry. Go look up on youtube what summoners have been like in past games so you can get an idea of what I mean in terms of its aesthetic and gameplay. In 6.0 I will proceed to actually play summoner beyond simply levelling it and forgetting about it afterwards along with my other classes.

I'm largely uninterested in hearing your defense of a job that got so bad it had to be reworked from the ground up.

So that's a no to all of that then. K.

At any rate, you should go try the current version before they delete it. You might like it.
I didn't like dots OR pets before I played it.

[ssunny2008]

I'm largely uninterested in hearing your defense of a job that got so bad it had to be reworked from the ground up.

A bunch of classes have been reworked over the time just because of whiny ppl and not because they´ve been so bad and unplayable. And those on the cost of players who enjoyed them and not even for the better gameplay-wise. The dumbdowns are real.
I´m pretty sure, that nobody would say a word if the classes would stay in their core and get advanced with more complexity, uniqueness or even simple fixes to real issues. But the homogenization and dumbdowns are something different and completely unneccessary.

But well, i´m not catered now and i won´t get catered with SMN in the future. You´ll get catered and SE shows their middlefinger to all actual SMN mains. So why care about it? Everything is fine, isn´t it?

[aveyond-dreams]

Here is an analogy:

McDonald’s is known for serving hamburgers.

However, the only McDonald’s in a particular city for some reason sells sushi instead of hamburgers. Multiple times, they’ve tried combining the two but have failed each time and have difficulty attracting new customers.

Since I like hamburgers, I’m not interested in a McDonald’s that is trying to be unique by selling sushi. Most people in the city also decide to take their business elsewhere, because they want a normal burger.

However, a minority of people like going to this McDonald’s and have railed against anyone who has advocated for making this McDonald’s an actual McDonald’s by coming up with every excuse imaginable.

Finally, the CEO of McDonald’s shuts the failed sushi operation down and they announce the return of hamburgers, and most people in the town are really happy. The restaurant is now successful. However the people who liked eating sushi at this McDonald’s now feel like they’ve been cast out, because that McDonald’s should have never been selling sushi in the first place.

[ssunny2008]

Here is an analogy:

McDonald’s is known for serving hamburgers.

However, the only McDonald’s in a particular city for some reason sells sushi instead of hamburgers. Multiple times, they’ve tried combining the two but have failed each time and have difficulty attracting new customers.

Since I like hamburgers, I’m not interested in a McDonald’s that is trying to be unique by selling sushi. Most people in the city also decide to take their business elsewhere, because they want a normal burger.

However, a minority of people like going to this McDonald’s and have railed against anyone who has advocated for making this McDonald’s an actual McDonald’s by coming up with every excuse imaginable.

Finally, the CEO of McDonald’s shuts the failed sushi operation down and they announce the return of hamburgers, and most people in the town are really happy. The restaurant is now successful. However the people who liked eating sushi at this McDonald’s now feel like they’ve been cast out, because that McDonald’s should have never been selling sushi in the first place.

Because FF14 doesn´t offer more than SMN? Because you know the exact numbers to claim stuff like minority / majority? Common... and imo, the old SMN is the hamburger and the new one will be sushi, since it has never been like this.